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Thread: How to read this ?

  1. #1
    Registered User Hany Hayek's Avatar
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    Default How to read this ?

    Kindly advise what the + and x signs mean and how to play this.

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    “Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”
    ― Victor Hugo

  2. #2
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    The x means double-sharp. Typically, the note is already sharp by key signature, and is sharped by another semitone. Doing this instead of just writing the next higher note makes sense outside equal temperament only (i.e. not on a piano, but on a violin).

    The + I have never seen before. It may be an instrument-specific symbol (like bow up/bow down).
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    Registered User Hany Hayek's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Thanks Bertman,

    The + for the violin will mean a pizzicato (if I remember correctly). But this is Carlo Minier Scioglidita exercise #10?
    As for the double sharp, so how should I play the do# in this case?
    “Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”
    ― Victor Hugo

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlo Munier View Post
    The + for the violin will mean a pizzicato (if I remember correctly). But this is Carlo Minier Scioglidita exercise #10?
    Well, on mandolin pizzicato occurs more often...
    I really don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlo Munier View Post
    As for the double sharp, so how should I play the do# in this case?
    Let's call it C# (Solfege is like Chinese to me ). Then a Cx would be equal to D on a fretted instrument or on a piano (i.e. the frequency ratio Cx/C would be (2^1/12)^2 = 1.1224), whereas in just intonation it would be slightly higher ( (16/15)^2 = 1.1377).
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  6. #5

    Default Re: How to read this ?

    The plus is a LH pizzicato, essentially a pull off, in this case from a silent upper note.

    Double sharps are used because they make musical sense, regardless of temperament. Even though an F## = G on fixed-pitch instruments, they still have different meanings in the context of the key. It's kind of like using there/their/they're. Why bother writing the correct one if they all sound the same? The same answer applies to ## and bb.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Robertson-Tessi View Post
    ... different meanings in the context of the key. It's kind of like using there/their/they're. Why bother writing the correct one if they all sound the same?
    Hmmm. In a text, spelling can make a semantic difference. Compare
    "the squirrels found their nuts"
    "the squirrels found they're nuts"
    Just listening to this sentence can produce a misunderstanding, so the spelling contains more information and it would be better to read the story than to listen to it.

    How does that connect to music? Is there a story in the notation the ear can misunderstand? And would just reading the notation be better than listening to (or even play) the piece?
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  9. #7

    Default Re: How to read this ?

    If you are learning by ear and not naming notes, then no, it doesn't matter. You don't have to be able to spell to understand someone talking. But if you are trying to read music, then:

    It is a matter of context within the key. If you are writing atonal music, then there's not often a reason for double sharps, just as if you were writing a series of words that were simply to be spoken for their sounds and not their meanings, then it wouldn't matter which version of 'their' you used if you wanted that sound.

    But, in tonal music, note spelling have meanings within the tonality of the section of music. The F##: On several levels this indicates something to the player who is reading the music (if they are well-versed in the standards of notation). First, the F## is a leading tone to the G#, from a harmonic perspective. That immediately has a meaning in terms of interpretation, at least as a default. Second, the F## is actually easier to read. If you were to write the passage with a G natural, you'd have a natural in front of the note to cancel the key signature, and then you'd have to add a sharp back in front of the next note to put it back to G#. Two modified notes instead of one. And visually, you'd not see the drop, since they'd both be on the same line. Somewhere on the internet there's a version of happy birthday that has been respelled enharmonically with multiple sharps and flats. Hard to sight read, even in the most crude of ways! It's an extreme example, but it shows the power of the visual aspect of sight reading. The G to F instantly indicates a downward movement of some kind, visually. (Unless the composer is playing games with you (G F## G F## = same notes))

    The opposite approach would work: learn the piece by ear. Hear the sound of that F##. Maybe think of it as a G, or not, whatever. Once you have heard its meaning, it doesn't really matter what you call it for yourself. The real knowledge is the sound and function of the note. Call it what you want, as long as you 'get it'.

    But then, the point of notation is to enable a good sight reader to 'get it' right away, when using the page instead of the ear. Recordings/live performances aren't always available, especially centuries ago, so maybe it's a less necessary issue nowadays.

    Personally, I like to use my ear to learn tunes, and do so almost entirely nowadays, and I'm sure you understand the reasons. But, there is an acknowledged method and sometime advantage to the printed note, as long as it's written and interpreted correctly.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Robertson-Tessi View Post
    Second, the F## is actually easier to read. If you were to write the passage with a G natural, you'd have a natural in front of the note to cancel the key signature, and then you'd have to add a sharp back in front of the next note to put it back to G#. Two modified notes instead of one. And visually, you'd not see the drop, since they'd both be on the same line. Somewhere on the internet there's a version of happy birthday that has been respelled enharmonically with multiple sharps and flats. Hard to sight read, even in the most crude of ways!
    This makes sense for me. Readability is important, or else much of the point of standard notation is lost.
    Not that I read much of late - I am a listener, too.
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    In training... KristinEliza's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    While the + symbol does mean LH pizzicato in the bowed world, when I've come across it in the mandolin world, I THINK it is usually an indication of ornamentation. What kind of ornamentation? That depends on you and the music.

    Looking at that example, I can't imagine it meaning a 'hammer-on' since we're talking about Munier (but I certainly don't know EVERYthing about classical technique).

    Also, some publishers use the same symbol in different ways...so look for context clues! Maybe the + sign is there to draw your attention to a specific technique.

    If I am totally off base here, please, someone correct me!
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    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Looking at the phrase in question, I would think the "+" in this instance is a hammer-on rather than a pull-off, but as KristinEliza has said, it all depends on the context -- there may be an annotation elsewhere in the score that makes the required technique explicit.

    Martin

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  15. #11
    Joe B mandopops's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Getting in on this late.
    During my lessons w/ Mr. Vicari, he would use the + sign when he wanted a finger is to stay in place.

    The way I read this is, the 3rd finger sits on 'D' note on the 5th fret while the pinky stretches to the 'F' 8th fret all on the 'A' string. Don't lift up the 3rd finger, anchor it there and go back and forth with that 'D' and 'F' pattern (5th fret to 8th fret pattern).

    We would some times work on things requiring the pinky stretching up to the 8th fret without a position shift. If you're not used to using your pinky much, this is a good workout.

    This make sense?

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  17. #12
    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandopops View Post
    During my lessons w/ Mr. Vicari, he would use the + sign when he wanted a finger is to stay in place.
    Yeah, I suspect that this is for something peculiar to the particular method since that would be a pretty weird passage to include a LH pizz. My money's on leaving the fingers down, too, since I've seen that in other methods from that period. (I think Kayser or something does a + with an extending line to indicate fingers he wants left down during passages.)

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  19. #13
    Registered User Hany Hayek's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Thank you all. the + sign is a firm finger. Page 71 of "la scuola del mandolino" part 2, of Munier and it states the + is a "dito fermo"
    “Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”
    ― Victor Hugo

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  21. #14
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    In some notation I have seen the + indicates an ornament. I would think you need to check the editor's notations to know what he/she means. I don't think it is a universal symbol.
    Jim

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    Default Re: How to read this ?

    Your welcome, Carlo. One last tip, always order "Dito Fermo" el Dente.

    To Jim, yes I think it wise to check editor's notes, because it can be different by era. In the 'La Fustemberg' Variations, it appears as an ornamentation, as specified in Neil's Guide in the book.

    Munier & Vicari , Italians of that era, "dito fermo" makes more sense.

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