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Thread: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

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    FIDDLES with STRADOLINS your_diamond's Avatar
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    Default I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Most people (me included) have never run across an EMBERGHER.
    It's just a bent top mandolin, or is it?

    Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/325870522961
    There is also this one in the classifieds.
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/209847#209847

    I hope I don't get outbid by Steve Martin.
    https://youtu.be/7rt_5lkN_BE?si=zW5bjeRt_rqzXLV9

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by your_diamond View Post
    Most people (me included) have never run across an EMBERGHER.
    It's just a bent top mandolin, or is it?

    ...
    It has one more pecularity: A slanting fretboard. The fretboard is lower on the E string side and accordingly the bridge is lower on that side.
    Kentucky KM-805..........2 Hora M1086 Portuguese II(1 in car)
    Hora M1088 Mandola.....
    Richmond RMA-110..... .Noname Bearclaw
    Pochette Franz Janisch...5 Pocket............Alfredo Privitera pocket
    Puglisi Pocket 1908........Puglisi 1912.......Puglisi 1917
    3 Mandolinetto ..............C.Garozzo
    1 Mandriola...................Cannelo G. Mandriola...Böhm Waldzither 1921
    Johs Møller 1945............Luigi Embergher Studio 1933
    Marma Seashell back......Luigi Embergher 5bis 1909

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    Registered User Jason Stein's Avatar
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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    German luthier Afred Woll restores and sells historic mandolins, including Emberghers. I see 4 Embergher mandolins and a mandola on his site now. They have the advantage of being restored and set up by an excellent luthier. NFI.

    https://woll-mandolinen.de/originale/

    Good luck!
    Last edited by Jason Stein; Nov-04-2023 at 7:59pm.

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by poul hansen View Post
    It has one more pecularity: A slanting fretboard. The fretboard is lower on the E string side and accordingly the bridge is lower on that side.
    Two of the Embergher mandolins on Alfred Woll's site (the 1924 N. 5b and the 1913 N. 3) both seem to have the same peculiarity (as does the mandola). I once owned a 1924 Gibson L-4 guitar with that peculiarity. Never saw another Gibson guitar like it. She played like a dream. So, that peculiarity, on the ebay Embergher does not scare me off. Plus, I still have one good repairman, that hasn't retired.

    What scares me about Alfred Woll's Embergher mandolins is... there are no prices.
    Last edited by your_diamond; Nov-05-2023 at 10:13am.

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Why? it's disgusting American food
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    Listen to original tune "When You Fly" by my old band The Kindreds

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by your_diamond View Post
    Most people (me included) have never run across an EMBERGHER.
    It's just a bent top mandolin, or is it?

    Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/325870522961
    There is also this one in the classifieds.
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/209847#209847
    I highly recommend that you don't just jump into this without adequate information. When I first was interested in Emberghers there was the book "The Embergher Mandolin" by Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt. Unfortunately that book is no longer in print. The website embergher.com does have a fair amount of information.

    First of all why are you interested in these? Do you play other bowlback mandolins? Is there are reason you are interested in these specifically?

    Emberghers are Roman style mandolins and the other two well-respected vintage Italian bowlbacks, Vinnacia and Calace, are Neapolitan style.

    The Roman/Embergher style actually has a somewhat assymmetrical slant toward the bass side, true. However the other aspects of the style is a very triangular and narrow neck, often around 1 inch/25mm at the nut. Most of the later ones have a zero fret where that fret is positioned very close to the nut.

    There are three general categories: student, orchestra, and concert. The student mandolins are the simplest—well-made but with simpler unadorned materials. The Orchestra models are similar to each other but get more ornate as the numbers increase. The No. 3 has fluted ribs and some additional fancier inlays. There is a style No. 4 but I believe those were special order.

    The concert mandolins have different voicings from the orchestral ones with a different configuration of the internal bracings. The most desired by players are the 5 and 5bis. They are not the most ornate but beautifully understated and the intent was a design for the best in tone.

    I have three Emberghers: a 1913 Studio A, a 1917 No. 1 that needs some work and a fully restored 1904 No. 3 with fluted rosewood bowl.

    The first one you link to sold by an eBay seller in Poland is a No.3 and it looks to be in good shape with the exception of a replaced tailpiece. Victor Speranski is very knowledgeable MC member who knows the brand well. The 1907 and before instruments BTW have a symmetrical scratchplate and after that they had the "scroll" type ones.

    Has your favored un-retired repairman worked on bowbacks? You may want to talk to him about that especially if you buy one of the higher end ones. You will want to restore it to original specs and bowlbacks in general are very different from carved topped mandolins and Emberghers are very different from other Italian and other bowlbacks in general.

    Here is my No. 3:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Jim

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    why are you interested in these?
    Why? I like old mandolins.

    Maybe not this one, after your suggestions.

    Does look like nice bones, unless it's coming unglued inside and might not crack $2,000.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Actually, assuming it is in decent shape the Polish one (No.3) looks pretty good but I would assume the price would be higher than it is now and it probably would need some work though hopefully not too much. Mine needed quite a bit of work which I had done in Belgium but it was definitely worth it. An exquisite instrument and likely made by Embergher himself since it was fairly early when the shop was small. Also it is very light in weight.
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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Actually, assuming it is in decent shape the Polish one (No.3) looks pretty good but I would assume the price would be higher than it is now and it probably would need some work though hopefully not too much. Mine needed quite a bit of work which I had done in Belgium but it was definitely worth it. An exquisite instrument and likely made by Embergher himself since it was fairly early when the shop was small. Also it is very light in weight.
    From the pictures, the Polish Embergher (No.3) does not look like it has a zero fret. I've asked. Waiting on a response.
    Would that make it older than 1920s. It also has the later scroll scratch plate.

    I've also asked what the width of the fretboard is across the nut (in millimeters).
    Jim, I'm glad you mentioned that it might have a 25mm width. That might make it more suitable for a person with more pointy fingers than me.

    She needs a lot less work than that $200 SOL I bought in pieces. That one turned out alright. Wish I could show it to you. Who did you use to repair yours in Brussels?

    Mike

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Herd from the seller:

    The fretboard is approximately 23mm wide at the nut. THAT IS 0.906 OF AN INCH. Too small for me.

    There is no zero fret.

    With insurance (declared value) at current price it would be around 75 USD to ship to the US.
    I can also send it via EMS which is a safer and quicker option and it would cost around 90 USD.

    My guess is, if the bids keep going up insurance will be more. Plus don't forget taxes on shipping and the sale price.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    That was why I warned you. I believe my No. 3 is about that nut width (I can measure it later). Mine is early so it does not have the zero fret.

    BTW the other feature of Emberghers is that they always used bar frets even into the 1940s when Luigi handed the workshop to Domenico Cerrone.
    Jim

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    I have a nice Pecoraro, which is considered to be a true Embergher as he was the last master luthier to produce Emberghers until the shop closed and he continued building under his own name.

    It's a Model 5, identical to the 5-bis without the "scorpion" peghead/tuning setup. (I tend to view that as a plus). complete with the gorgeous recurves maple bowl and scalloped ribs and all, and signed in pencil inside the bowl bu Pecoraro.

    It will need a new home sooner or later. If you ever get to the DC/MD/VA area, you'd be welcome to check it out.

    Zero fret, bar frets etc, bowl lined with wood rather than paper, the typical Roman neck configuration, and the fingerboard is of course thicker on the bass side. Remarkable volume, which you would expect from a soloist's instrument.

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob A View Post
    I have a nice Pecoraro, which is considered to be a true Embergher as he was the last master luthier to produce Emberghers until the shop closed and he continued building under his own name.

    It's a Model 5, identical to the 5-bis without the "scorpion" peghead/tuning setup. (I tend to view that as a plus). complete with the gorgeous recurves maple bowl and scalloped ribs and all, and signed in pencil inside the bowl bu Pecoraro.

    It will need a new home sooner or later. If you ever get to the DC/MD/VA area, you'd be welcome to check it out.

    Zero fret, bar frets etc, bowl lined with wood rather than paper, the typical Roman neck configuration, and the fingerboard is of course thicker on the bass side. Remarkable volume, which you would expect from a soloist's instrument.
    Bob, Sounds like a wonderful mandolin, but Jim (in the conversations above) has pointed out the one thing that stops me from diving in... anything smaller than a 1 & 1/6" neck width (at the nut) is too small for me. Most of my mando's have 1 & 3/16" necks.
    Have you tried listing it Here in the Mandolin Cafe Classifieds. I've had great results.

    Mike

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    ...and now for some humor, I stole from Mick (thank you sir).



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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    If you are going to listen to only one, pick something by Vivaldi!

    http://embergher.com/sound-samples-o...r-instruments/

    She sold for $2,292.00 USD (plus tax & shipping).
    Last edited by your_diamond; Nov-08-2023 at 8:14am.

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by your_diamond View Post
    If you are going to listen to only one, pick something by Vivaldi!

    http://embergher.com/sound-samples-o...r-instruments/

    She sold for $2,292.00 USD (plus tax & shipping).
    So, I assume you didn’t buy it. BTW I remember when Ferdinand and Sebastiaan were teenagers and playing circles around everyone even then.
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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by your_diamond View Post
    Bob, Sounds like a wonderful mandolin, but Jim (in the conversations above) has pointed out the one thing that stops me from diving in... anything smaller than a 1 & 1/6" neck width (at the nut) is too small for me. Most of my mando's have 1 & 3/16" necks.
    Have you tried listing it Here in the Mandolin Cafe Classifieds. I've had great results.

    Mike
    Yeah, the nut width is about 15/16" on mine. I don't think you'll find one much wider. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to impact my playing.

    I've toyed with the idea of selling, but it seems to be too much of a bother to bother.

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    So, I assume you didn’t buy it.
    I did not, but I learned a little and with 961 Views in only 4 days on this thread, I might not be the only one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    BTW I remember when Ferdinand and Sebastiaan were teenagers and playing circles around everyone even then.
    I wish Vivaldi was here to see this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thjQ...gZTO58SSxSLR5w

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Thanks, Bob.
    I don't own an Embergher, but have played a few from the 00's era.
    What you say about your Pecoraro confirms my outsider's opinion.
    The craftwork and detailing on the Pecoraro's I've seen does really seem a step above the master's.
    This is not to pixx off LE owners or diss the earier work, which always seem very highly crafted.
    The Pecoraros appear extra exceptionally well made.
    I think you should be proud to consider yours an Embergher.
    At what point did "Embergher" become a brand rather than the product of a single individual?
    Maybe a lot earlier than imagined...maybe the basic models eventually being made by assistants and checked by LE, some of the basic work on the higher end models done by assistants and the fine detail work done by the master?
    Even Michelangelo didn't remove all the stone himself on that giant block of marble before David showed up.

    Mick
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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Thanks, Bob.
    I don't own an Embergher, but have played a few from the 00's era.
    What you say about your Pecoraro confirms my outsider's opinion.
    The craftwork and detailing on the Pecoraro's I've seen does really seem a step above the master's.
    This is not to pixx off LE owners or diss the earier work, which always seem very highly crafted.
    The Pecoraros appear extra exceptionally well made.
    I think you should be proud to consider yours an Embergher.
    At what point did "Embergher" become a brand rather than the product of a single individual?
    Maybe a lot earlier than imagined...maybe the basic models eventually being made by assistants and checked by LE, some of the basic work on the higher end models done by assistants and the fine detail work done by the master?
    Even Michelangelo didn't remove all the stone himself on that giant block of marble before David showed up.

    Mick
    I believe the Embergher atelier was understood to produce high-quality instruments to the extent that the Embergher label was sufficient to denote quality, actual hands-on maker notwithstanding. (My general impression, you understand; the Pecoraro is my sole Embergher example).

    One is reminded of the lore of Loar, though that was seemingly only recognised post-Monroe. Also the Calace enterprise bore the stamp of quality, though Calace outdistanced Loar to a remarkable extent, being not only luthier, but composer, soloist, and international icon of the Mandosphere.

    In all fairness, and as I've had occasion to remark in past, the mandolins produced during Italy's Golden Age were noteworthy in that even in the least ornate examples, the makers made instruments of fine acoustic quality. (One excepts the instruments made primarily for decorative souvenirs for the tourist classes).

    Regarding the quality of Pecoraro instruments in general, it should be noted that the late, very much lamented, Alison Stephens's primry instrument was a Pecoraro, made exclusively for her by the master.

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    I’m going to try just this!

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    Default Re: I would like to buy a EMBERGHER

    I don’t believe that at any time even the shops with had a small group of employees. I see them more on similar to violin shops. According to the history page in Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt's book, The Embergher Mandolin, by 1900 there were about 8 people working in the shop including apprentices. By 1920 there were 15 people each working on a specific task. They say that after 1913 Embergher himself made fewer instruments himself, though directed the business and was responsible for design changes.

    Ralf, who oversaw the restoration of my 1904 No. 3, said it was quite possible that Embergher himself built my mandolin since it is the upper end model of the orchestra style. You can see his signature inside the body:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    In 1938 Embergher handed over the workshop and brand to Domenico Cerrone who was one of this best apprentices. He oversaw production from 1937 to 1954. Pecoraro worked there with him.

    I was privileged to see and play a few of Cerrone's 5bis mandolins owned by Ralf and a good friend of mine. They are excellent instruments of very high quality and workmanship.
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