octave or bouzouki

[sboneill]

Folks, it's been a while since I posted here at the cafe but if you don't mind, I would like a little help with a couple of questions that I'm certain some of you have faced. I would greatly appreciate it any help.

1st - Octave or Bouzouki? My goal with this instrument is to play mainly backup as well as some counter melody and maybe a little lead but primarily rhythm. I love singing traditional music to my wife and kids and enjoy playing with fiddle, whistle, etc, etc. I am a mandolin, guitar player and can play a little fiddle and whistle as well.

2nd - here in Central, IL we have limited access to mandolins and no access to octaves or bouzouki's. Driving to Chicago or St. Louis is just not possible at the moment. I was hoping for a little advice on what to buy with a budget of around $1500. I have seen a load of you tube videos and so far my favorite sounding one is a Phil Crump instrument. The sound bites on hist site are perfect and the tone of his instruments are exactly what I'm looking for. I'm not certain if the prices on his site are up to date or not but I suppose the question really is should I wait a while and save a little more to get one of his instruments or is there another builder or brand that has a similar tone in my current price point?

I know this question has been asked to death but as some of you know it's a challenge for us mid western folks that live in a small town. Cheers -S

[Narayan Kersak]

Great questions. It's all a matter of personal preference. I prefer an octave mandolin. I came from guitar and went to mandolin. It's nice to be able to play rhythm or add counter melodies when you don't know the tune, or play the melody with the rest of the group if you do know it.

My mandolin is great, I even enjoy playing rhythm on it, but an octave mandolin allows you to hit that guitar range if there are no other rhythm instruments, which often happens at sessions I attend. It's the best of both worlds.

I never thought about getting a bazouki...#1 scale length is too long. #2, I've got a great guitar I tune to DADGAD to cover what the bazouki would do.

Check out this fellow...

http://www.acoustic-corner.com/fsi.php

I'll have some clips up on youtube in about a month after I get the octave mandolin he's building for me finished up. He does great work, and is right in your price point.

Previously I've had a Trinity College Octave mandolin (which I dearly miss, as it was a cannon once I put extra heavy guage strings on it) which I upgraded to a resonator octave. Then sold that and saved up for this next one.

It's best to save up if you really want something that you want. Otherwise, you'll just be thinking about the one you want while you play the one you got!

[Chip Booth]

I guess it depends on what you mean. I define an octave mandolin as a relatively short scale length instrument with unison courses. I define a bouzouki as a longer scale length instrument with octave courses. I prefer a shorter scale length, as fifths tuning already presents enough challenges for rhythm playing. I also think that the octave courses are less flexible overall. It makes for a really nice sounding instrument, but can be a drawback playing melody. There are those who feel differently, of course. Another issue I have with most octave course instruments is that the higher octave string is placed in the lowest position. That means that typically most of the pick energy goes into the octave note and not the lower, bassier string. As a result, these instruments often sound thin by comparison. Some builders reverse the order of those strings to combat this problem. Keep in mind, it's not a big deal to put octave courses on an octave mandolin. The nut and the bridge won't be set up perfectly, but you can certainly give it a try and see how it works for you.

[Marty Jacobson]

Bouzoukis generally have quite long scales. If it's your first long-scale instrument (longer than, say, a mandolin), I would strongly advise getting something in the more easily manageable 21.5" range.
Look on the Cafe classifieds for something used.. you should be able to get a great instrument for that amount of cash.

Chip's suggestion to put octave pairs on an octave mandolin is a good one. It's a fun way to try out the sound without it being a big committment.

[sboneill]

You hit the nail on the head Narayan, " The best of both worlds" is exactly what I'm looking for. It sounds like the octave may be the way to go. I really want some guitar like tones with some of that mandolin style. I think scale length should probably be a factor as I'm fairly small in stature. Thanks for the insights all I really appreciate it. Cheers!!

[DLester]

I can't help you on your choice because I'm still waiting for the arrival of my first mandola, or more correctly, waiting for the replacement for my first mandola that didn't survive the gentle ministrations of the postal service. I do, however, have a question for you. Do you have any mandolin/mandola teachers up there in Bloomington or Normal or is my best bet going to be to drive over to Champagne?

Doug

[DLester]

Sorry, double post

[scifi]

You hit the nail on the head Narayan, " The best of both worlds" is exactly what I'm looking for. It sounds like the octave may be the way to go. I really want some guitar like tones with some of that mandolin style. I think scale length should probably be a factor as I'm fairly small in stature. Thanks for the insights all I really appreciate it. Cheers!!

I got an instrument with a scale length of 58cm and find it a good compromise between a Bouzouki and an OM. To stretch the fingers over 5 frets is still doable for me even if it can become a little hard for fast runs and tunes. And it provides a softer sound than my 54cm scale OM what makes it maybe a little better for backup playing (needs less control of the attack).

regards
scifi

[sboneill]

Contact the Academy of Fretted Instruments in Peoria. Dave McDonald and Andy Hatfield, the 2012 National Flatpick champ, teaches there. Andy is absolutely wonderful teacher and a fantastic person.

[Narayan Kersak]

Yes, and many people will tell you that shorter scale length will compromise volume and tone. I've found that is made up for based on your playing style and also heavier guage strings. On my old 20 inch scale length I had .14 guage strings on the high ee's and that thing roared. The one currently in production is 21 and 3/4. If they are built right you'll have a blast going back and forth. The octave mandolin is quite versatile.

[Bertram Henze]

many people will tell you that shorter scale length will compromise volume and tone. I've found that is made up for based on your playing style and also heavier guage strings.

True. My 21" with 56-39-25-15 is loud enough, with a good punch.
These "sawed-off zouks", however, definitely sound different from real zouks - dryer, more in the foreground.

[Steve L]

Yeah, heavier strings on a shorter scale doesn't sound anything like the long scale of a zouk. Most of the Irish players I'm aware of do not use octave stringing. I would always choose the longest scale length I could handle purely for my preference in sound. 23" is a good midway point between both worlds (the old Flatirons for example). It really depends on what you're doing with them. I often capo halfway up the neck of a 26 3/4" bouzouki and at that point, the stretches aren't an issue.

[luthierseye]

[QUOTE=Steve L;1175687]Yeah, heavier strings on a shorter scale doesn't sound anything like the long scale of a zouk. Most of the Irish players I'm aware of do not use octave stringing.
I'd like to add another idea that I am enjoying a huge amount. I have a Beard(Richard Beard of N. Carolina) custom made 19" OM(EADG). It has a slightly larger body-Bouzouki size, which gives it lots of bottom end. I love the short reaches of the short scale and now I have added octave strings on the D & G courses. This really brightens the sound and it really sings! Oddly enough, it doesn't take much away from melody playing partly from the large body and partly from the octave strings being on the "E" side of the courses. Obviously, I use heavier strings that bring out the voicing very nicely. This might be another option to consider.

[otterly2k]

I say, if you love a Crump, and can swing the cost (with some time to save up)- get a Crump! In the meantime, look for a used Trinity College and start getting used to the feel and range of octave mandos. When your Crump comes in, sell the TC if you want, and you will be ready to get the most out of your Crump.

There are other great builders out there, and I"m sure you've explored. It's hard to assess tone and feel by looking at videos, but for most of us, that's the best we can do- it's so rare to find a place / way to compare CBOM's. That said, I've participated in a couple of local CBOM gatherings, one organized by me and one by Avi - and you could consider convening a similar event. It's easy - pick a date and time and location to host, promote it here and on the section of the site for local events, and see who RSVP's. Then at least you can try out each others' instruments. And meet and jam with other players. It's nice to invite people to potluck as well... sharing music and food is a great way to gather.

KE

[zoukboy]

I know this question has been asked to death but as some of you know it's a challenge for us mid western folks that live in a small town. Cheers -S

No worries. Karen's suggestion to order the instrument you really want and get an interim instrument to play in the meantime is good one. The only caveat I would offer is if you are wanting the bigger, darker, fuller sound of a Crump then a Trinity College might comparatively sound like two skeletons "dancing" on a tin roof. If the bouzouki bug bites in spite of a TC then I would say you are really going to enjoy the Crump (or other handmade instrument) when you get it.

One question I always ask people who are looking to get into the bouzouki - and this pertains to tuning as well as build style and scale length - is what sound attracted you to the instrument in the first place? Who have you been listening to?

[sboneill]

I tend to agree with you Karen. If something seems right it's better to wait. That being said, I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to hold off on the crump and try something like a Peterson Octave or the Lafferty octave that the Mandolin Store (Just great folks there) is producing.

What are the popular recent thoughts on the Peterson and Lafferty's?

I think what I like about the Peterson is it doesn't sound like a big mandolin it has that balance between mando and guitar, I like that!!! The price point is pretty good as well

[sboneill]

Roger, I would say I have been thinking of that in between guitar and mando sound ever since I heard I discovered Dervish and Tim O'Brien playing his nugget. I started looking at discussions and came to the bouzouki on you tube then the irish bouzouki then the octave mandolin. I have always loved Dervish and Tim O'Brien is by far and away my #1 desert island musician. I finally made myway to the crump site and just loved the depth and warmth of all of his instruments. I've watched countless you tube vid's for the last 6 mths. This finally prompted me to ask the question above.

As strange as it may seem I just have the sound in my head but ultimately I really want to play some backup and maybe melody in my local session. I have played a little fiddle there as well as mando and guitar.

[Steve L]

You should have a look a Herb Taylor's instruments as well.

[otterly2k]

"That being said, I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to hold off on the crump and try something like a Peterson Octave or the Lafferty octave that the Mandolin Store (Just great folks there) is producing."


I really don't think there's a single right answer here.

I "hear" that itch to get playing, and also a sense that you have a fairly clear idea of the kind of sound you want. There are different ways to go about that - and most of us have played "catch and release" until we settle on the instrument(s) that suit us (or stay in perpetual catch and release mode).

One caveat is that it does cost some $ to do that - you end up paying for shipping, accessories, etc. And if you buy new, the instrument will lose some amount of resale value no matter what. If you feel pretty clear about what you want, you might as well set those bits of $ toward your goal, save up, and buy what you want. If you aren't clear, then spending some time trying different things is worth it - it will help you refine your preferences for scale, tone, neck profile, etc. And you move closer and closer to what you want.

Also - back to the other part of your OP -
whether to go with OM or zouk - the tonal differences you can hear and decide what you like. But the other big issue is scale, and so you might want to factor in your hand size. Obviously, skill and dexterity are a part, but simple reach is too. As much as I like zouks, with my small hands, I'd have trouble playing melodic stuff on them. The best way to figure this out, of course, is in person, hands-on. I did that via catch and release, until I found a scale that worked well for me.

[sboneill]

I would say I do have that itch to get playing Karen. I have been looking into this for at least 6mths but have been thinking about for well over a year. There are costs to working your way up to what you "think" you want. These costs are just part of what we go through. If I where to purchase something other than what I think I ultimately want , a crump in this case, I would expect to have it for a couple of years before upgrading it. I suppose I could just keep whatever I start out with and have it as a backup as well. I don't think I'm rushing into to it (have done so many time before with the mandolin and guitar) but I think I'm clear about what tones I'm looking for. I have emailed Phil about his crumps and am waiting to make any decision until I hear from him about cost and the time it will take to build one. Based upon that info I will make my decision. I'll let y'all know what I decide. Thanks so much for helping me through this everyone. Your perspectives I greatly appreciated!! Cheers -S

[Barry Wilson]

I picked up a gold tone OM. it was in the store I frequent when I picked up my godin mandolin. I played it and loved it. it came home with me. my gold tone mandola just got back from fretters having a pickup installed and I get that tomorrow (and I am trading my fender acoustic guitar in for a godin 5th avenue tomorrow so I like good stuff too hehe). I know lots don't like the pac rim stuff but I get many compliments on the rich sound this om has. I built one of don kawalek's om kits and it has a very deep sound, maybe because of walnut?

my flame suit is thick

[otterly2k]

FWIW, I just saw a recent ad from Music Emporium in the Classifieds CBOM section for a Burgin bouzouki - in (or at least close to) the price range you mentioned above. You might want to check out whether Burgin is doing OMs. I haven't played one, but I have been to that store a few times and to put it simply, they simply don't sell junk. They deal mostly in high-end instruments and if this is something they've agreed to carry, odds are it is worthy. NFI in either the builder or the store. But it might be worth putting this builder on your check-it-out list.

[Steve L]

God, I wish I'd known that...I was just there this morning buying strings!

[zoukboy]

Roger, I would say I have been thinking of that in between guitar and mando sound ever since I heard I discovered Dervish and Tim O'Brien playing his nugget. I started looking at discussions and came to the bouzouki on you tube then the irish bouzouki then the octave mandolin. I have always loved Dervish and Tim O'Brien is by far and away my #1 desert island musician. I finally made myway to the crump site and just loved the depth and warmth of all of his instruments. I've watched countless you tube vid's for the last 6 mths. This finally prompted me to ask the question above.

As strange as it may seem I just have the sound in my head but ultimately I really want to play some backup and maybe melody in my local session. I have played a little fiddle there as well as mando and guitar.

The other part to consider is what approach do you want to take. Tim plays in GDAE while the Dervish guys play in GDAD (or variants thereof), so those two artists represent a marked contrast in approach.

[zoukboy]

FWIW, I just saw a recent ad from Music Emporium in the Classifieds CBOM section for a Burgin bouzouki - in (or at least close to) the price range you mentioned above. You might want to check out whether Burgin is doing OMs. I haven't played one, but I have been to that store a few times and to put it simply, they simply don't sell junk. They deal mostly in high-end instruments and if this is something they've agreed to carry, odds are it is worthy. NFI in either the builder or the store. But it might be worth putting this builder on your check-it-out list.

I was looking at that, too. The scale length is 24" - not too long to tune to 8va mando tuning.