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Thread: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

  1. #226
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    I sincerely hope this outlaw mandolin finds it's way into some players hands. It's a shame the drama surrounding what seems to be a darn good sounding instrument. Shame on you guys that think it should be destroyed. Maybe the new owner should take a chunk of glass and scratch off the logo

  2. #227
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Forever the optimist, I still have a feeling that this will work out and this mandolin will end up in the hands of a player who will love it for what it is and will pay for it what it is actually worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluejay View Post
    Shame on you guys that think it should be destroyed.
    I don't think anyone here said that they thought it should be destroyed only that there are some news items that said that Paypal did that in the past.
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  3. #228
    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    It's not the first fake to change hands without knowing. But in this case the current owner knew well it was a fake and if he didn't yet refused to have it appraised for $50 or so then shame on him. We have told it was fake for free which should have at least sparked enough interest in him to have it professionally appraised. Since he didn't speaks volumes of his character. Just saw on Hardcore Pawn TV show where a Pastor came in with a Babe Ruth signed baseball complete with appraiser papers with it. They agreed to pay the price he wanted provided it came back from their appraiser it was a real signature. It came back as fake and the deal was off. I agree in that his seller needs to bite the bullet and his loss and advertise it for what it truly is and sell it. Either put a fair marker price on it (below $5000) or let it go to auction and land where it lands. Likely a great copy of the Loar F5.

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  5. #229
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    I'd pay 5G for it all day long, " If I didn't just buy another 34 F-7" its got the sound caliber of a mandolin costing 5 to 10 times more easily.

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  7. #230
    Site founder Scott Tichenor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    I'd exercise caution assigning a value on this one which no one here has played to my knowledge. While the individual that bought it clearly can't tell a badly faked Loar from a dozen images, they did say it sounded like a $300 instrument, in writing. My fear is people reading this think because someone says it's worth X amount that it really is. Talk about some seriously messed up marketing...

    It's worth what someone is willing to pay and what someone else is willing to accept. The YouTube video might have it sounding great but it's far more evidence of the talent of the individual playing it. Great mandolins will not make you a great player. If you suck as a player, the instrument isn't going to help you much.
    Last edited by Scott Tichenor; Sep-21-2013 at 9:52am.

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  9. #231
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    With so many beautiful mandolins out there, with so many great builders around, a few of them making GREAT Loar copies, why would anyone buy such an UGLY mandolin from such a dubious source under such nasty circumstances? The cafe does such a great job of connecting honest builders with honest buyers. The collective expertise is invaluable. Why look in a dark alley for something that is so easy to find in broad daylight. I can't feel sorry for anyone losing good money buying a crappy mandolin. There is no excuse for it.

  10. #232
    Mike Fox mandolinfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    I feel like if it were some other commodity instead of mandolins, I could very well have been taken. That worries me.
    Last edited by mandolinfox; Sep-22-2013 at 5:09pm. Reason: The Forum is not the place to voice my political opinions.
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  11. #233
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Quote Originally Posted by mandolinfox View Post
    This is what happens in a corporate culture where the "Free Market" is a sacred dogma that must be protected at the expense of everything else. I'm no socialist, but having rules about things like this does not seem like excessive government regulation to me.
    Current trademark and intellectual property laws, not to mention basic protections against consumer fraud, are more than adequate in the present situation. If somebody at Gibson decides that Stuart is hurting their brand as well as his own reputation, they'll have plenty of material with which to go after him.

    If I were Stuart I would quit while I'm ahead and either keep the mandolin or sell it for exactly what it is.
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  12. #234

    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    I'm a bit bewildered about the "destroy the counterfeit" policy of Paypals... I sell something that turns out to be counterfeit or is at least claimed to be counterfeit. Who gets to decide who the "expert" is that makes the determination that it is in fact counterfeit?
    I don't have the option of returning the money in exchange for the item back? Does this all happen before Paypal has given me my money therefore I get nothing? The woman in the article is correct in that a Stradivarius(or Stainer or Amati etc.) label in a Violin can hardly be grounds for claiming that it is a counterfeit. It has been done for so long and so often that that label is almost meaningless, and many rare and valuable instruments in their own right also have those labels.

  13. #235
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    As long as the instrument bears the labels and logo like the real thing it may at some time in the future be offered again for sale by someone else who may or may not know it's real identity. This is a distinct possibility and can cause financial harm to an unsuspecting buyer.

  14. #236

    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    What a great thread and an object lesson in caveat emptor!

    Hmmm, this fake Gibson is acquiring quite a colorful history. If someone ever buys the instrument for a modest price (i.e., does not get ripped off thinking it is a genuine "Loid L'ore"), I have a simple solution:

    Keep the instrument for 20 years. Add the word "Fake" to the pearl inlay and the serial sticker, as in, The Fake Gibson. Post a photo to this thread as the last comment before this is closed to confirm that it is the same notorious but resilient fake Gibson that has been resurfacing on ebay like a Phoenix rising from the ashes. Save the youtube video of the instrument being played (linked earlier in this thread). Print a copy of this thread to archive the history of its pawnshop and ebay journey.

    Then, play it publicly for novelty tunes ("now this here is a lost tune by Mr. Billman Row that he used to play on this very same Fake Gibson"). Or simply keep it in a closet and off ebay.

    After 20 years, it can then be sold (with full disclosure of the instrument's true history and a copy of this thread as it's pedigree) as a one-of-a-kind item. I suspect there are collectors who would buy it at a higher price because of its notorious history, or even out of nostalgia. ("Could that really be "The Fake Gibson" with the Fake L-5 serial number? Several vintage dealers have now confirmed that that it really is The Fake Gibson that inspired 10 pages of threads on The Mandolin Cafe on its mysterious journey from West Virginia to Illinois!")

    Voila, problem solved.

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  16. #237
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Agreed! Great thread. And well done efforts to keep the spotlight on attemps to unload this now famous fake Loar wantabe.

    The big mystery to me is: when did this mandolin go from seemingly decent F5 copy to Loar-era forgery?

  17. #238

    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Wilson View Post
    Agreed! Great thread. And well done efforts to keep the spotlight on attemps to unload this now famous fake Loar wantabe.

    The big mystery to me is: when did this mandolin go from seemingly decent F5 copy to Loar-era forgery?
    when someone got greedy.
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  18. #239
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Wilson View Post
    The big mystery to me is: when did this mandolin go from seemingly decent F5 copy to Loar-era forgery?
    When they put "The Gibson" on the headstock and forged Lloyd Loar's signature on a fake Gibson label inside. That is pretty much the classic definition of forgery.

    This mandolin was a forgery from the start. The maker had to have known that one day this would happen.

  19. #240
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    One thought to keep in mind is that mandolins of this sort change hands all the time. Clone copies with labels and Gibson on the peghead have been made for years, and I know of none that have been "reversed". They change hands from person to person at the instrinsic value of the mandolin itself and based upon who happened to build it.

    What makes this case special is the repeated attempts to sell the mandolin as a real Gibson at a price that is also "fraudulent" when the seller knows darn well what he has.

    This, more than the mandolin itself is the subject of this thread.
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  20. #241
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    What would greatly change the situation would be the involvement of 1) law enforcement or / and 2) the formal legal system.

    I think it would be fun, but the litigants would probably not feel the same.
    Stephen Perry

  21. #242
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

    <not hosting discussion on that one.>
    Last edited by Scott Tichenor; Nov-26-2013 at 7:49am.
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