Loar forgery / fake Serial # 80263

[Vernon Hughes]

I reported it when it went on the first time and the second time as well almost as soon as it was listed. Still hoping to see it pulled.

[sgrexa]

Just got back from the Philly summer guitar show and there were a number of fairly recent Gibson Les Paul burst "relics" which seems to be a new side business in itself. To the best of my knowledge, these were authentic Gibsons at one point that were "aged" in one way or another to look old and authentic and there is a market for that sort of thing. This is another thing altogether, with it not being a Gibson at all. If the seller was clear in his or her description and sold it for what it "is", it might fetch between 3-4K which it may or may not be worth, who knows?

Sean

[almeriastrings]

And we can see by the photos that what he has said is what is there

The fake Gibson logo and label is what is there = counterfeit item.

No different from a fake 'designer' label on cheap sunglasses, the fake Shure mics all over Ebay, or a fake Rolex watch. All counterfeits, prohibited from sale, and liable to destruction when detected. It's fraud. Pure and simple.

[Dale Ludewig]

The last I looked (and I'm no expert at online auctions), there were no questions to the seller on the ad. Why is that? Surely someone has asked or confronted him directly. Not?

[houseworker]

The last I looked (and I'm no expert at online auctions), there were no questions to the seller on the ad. Why is that?

Sellers on eBay have the choice of whether or not to add questions to their listings. Doesn't mean they haven't been asked.

[D Sears]

I would say the seller is or has someone bidding up the price of the mandolin, hoping for someone else to jump in on the bidding and thus net a bigger yield. However, I would hope that someone that's dropping 10k or more into a mandolin would check the authenticity of the instrument. It should be evident that a listing with such sleight of hand and evasive wording would raise many red flags to anyone who has a pulse. If that weren't enough, the photos of the instrument definitely show a crude, at best, F-5 style mandolin, which doesn't even begin to capture the finesse of a true original.

The initial seller being in Princeton, WV, and then it being re-listed a short time later by a person in Illinois raises a few questions too-- one of the owners was known to be out of Princeton.

Another thing to ponder is that the auction, at the writing of this, has reached $9,225.00. If I were to put a price on this mandolin, I would give no more than 10% of that figure--a KM-1000 would be a better value and a finer instrument.

Also, approaching the 10K mark, there are some excellent mandolins to be had from fine master luthiers, that capture the spirit of the originals in a very good way. It makes me think even more strongly that a person who has this amount of capital to invest in a mandolin would do his or her research to understand the market and would conclude there is something terribly wrong with that ebay auction--that leads me back to the seller inflating the bids to get the auction to the level it is now.

[OldGus]

That's a great point, having multiple accounts that certainly is a possibility.

[richardbradford]

I'm following Scott's suggestion - sent eBay a message asking the add to be pulled, the seller banned and pointed eBay to www.mandolincafe.com to learn more about this fake. Also suggested the integrity of eBay was at risk if this auction was not pulled. The more noise we make, the more likely eBay will take action.

[Rodney Riley]

IL, do you know where your governors are?

Sure do. Wish this guy could be ones roommate.

[Jim Garber]

Ended!!

This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.

[Scott Tichenor]

Ended!!

Still live. Has not ended. http://www.ebay.com/itm/111103588009

[MnRoss]

It hasn't ended as I can see. Maybe Ebay has let it roll. The seller posts it as something it's not but sort of states he really isn't sure in the description . It's apparent he doesn't answer questions ect.. So I sent him one and I'll see if he answers it.. Too bad he has bidders and to bad Ebay is letting it ride.

[MnRoss]

I noticed he sells a lot of watches a few music related things and some tech stuff. Must be a pawn shop..

[Jim Garber]

Still live. Has not ended. http://www.ebay.com/itm/111103588009

Whoops... sorry...

[Eric Hanson]

A side thought.
Instead of trying through eBay, would anyone be able to contact Dave Harvey and have him use the Gibson law office contact the seller to let him know about copyright infringement, and the slew of trouble he is in if he continues the sale?

[terzinator]

I love this stuff. Well, I hate it, but I love it.

I reported the listing, and sent him a message, too... I said if he had trouble getting ahold of Gibson, that Gruhn guitars would probably be happy to authenticate a genuine Loar. It would be worth the $150,000 extra he'll make on the sale. But I said if he knows it's not genuine, that the listing is dishonest at best, and the item is fraudulent; that he's leading people on to think it's a Loar, and that there's already lots of discussion around the forums as to its fakery goodness.

His reply:

Fraudulent? Dishonest? Grow up. Did you even bother to read my listing? Not wanting to deal with a shark like George Gruhn makes me a liar? NOWHERE in my listing do I say it is a Loar or even that I think it's a Loar. Without proper documentation, no one in their right mind would claim that. You obviously aren't going to bid on it, so what is the point of your email?

So, sounds like a super guy.

[almeriastrings]

He does say it is a vintage Gibson F-5 Master Model, though - which it categorically is not, so there's your fraud and dishonesty.

Not even any need to get into the 'Loar' issue.

[PhillipeTaylor]

We need to re title this post to read "The Gibson f5 master model on ebay is a forgery" to get it clear at the top of the matching title for the product for the search engines. That might at least catch one of these customers eye.

[houseworker]

We need to re title this post to read "The Gibson f5 master model on ebay is a forgery" to get it clear at the top of the matching title for the product for the search engines. That might at least catch one of these customers eye.

A Google search for Gibson f5 master model ebay forgery already has one of the relevant threads here at the top of the list. Gibson 80263 points straight to this thread.

We don't know why people have bid so enthusiastically on this. They may be shills, they may be aware that it's a forgery, or if by any chance they're genuine innocents they'll most likely take it to a dealer for a valuation when it arrives. I'd be very surprised if the seller gets to keep his money even if it runs to its conclusion.

[PhillipeTaylor]

Cool. Sounds like you guys know what you're doing there...

FYI, here's a link to the FBI fraud tip form, where you can report this guy. Someone with real knowledge of this serial number, who did the original research should fill out this tip form, since Illinois won't accept fraud tip reports from out of state. https://tips.fbi.gov/

Here's the form for Illinois, I don't know if you can complete it without the suspects full information, looks like it may prevent reporting more than anything, since it requires a SS#, like I'd have THAT from someone who defrauded me! Anyway, maybe someone in Illinois can complete the form that knows directly about this situation. http://www.state.il.us/agency/oig/reportfraud.asp

[PhillipeTaylor]

Copy of message sent to seller on June 24th, 2013 at 5:34am PST

Item #111103588009 Ebay transaction June 24th, 2013

You have been informed that individuals have researched the serial number for the item listed and the serial number matches a Gibson guitar, not a mandolin. If you have not been, you are being informed now. The item has been identified as fraudulent and by continuing to sell the item on ebay with this knowledge, you are knowingly committing fraud. I have read the write up that you wrote, and you should consult a lawyer before you complete this sale, because nothing you claim absolves you of legal liability, unless you contact Gibson directly to confirm this serial number for the item in question. A record of this message is being placed on line for the sake of public record of this communication, and if the buyer wishes to press charges, the accumulated evidence will make this an easy case to prosecute if the item in question truly is fraudulent.

[Gary Hedrick]

Whoa buddy this is getting interesting.....the lawyers on this board are in the mix.......Great!! This dude is so agressive and such an A** that he deserves to be sanctioned. All of this information about Loars....his title for the listings.....all the "well is could be but I'm not saying that it is" crap is just a little too much to stomach......he has done his fan dance ala Sally Rand and pulled folks along to bid $9,250 for a $3k mandolin......that is such a shill game ...it is almost like a carney barker pullling in the suckers for the slaughter......

[AlanN]

And yet it remains as listed. The seller has cojones, if nothing else (...he ain't got a Loar....but he already knew that, or did he?...)

[Dieter Zanger]

It´s very interesting: 24 persons already made a bid. That means that they are willing do give more than 9000 $ for the mando. A Loar ore not, a Gibson or not: There is a lot of money out there...

Dieter from Germany

[houseworker]

The seller knows it's a fake for sure. If those bids are genuine and a sale results the buyer is unlikely to remain ignorant for too long. It's not like there's any prospect of that instrument ever being successfully passed off as genuine.

It's eBay's reputation that suffers with auctions like these, since they've had more than enough reports on this listing to flag it up as seriously suspect. Providing any buyer gets it checked over within 45 days, they'll have no difficulty getting their money back.