Bowlback Technique: How to hold properly?

[Mandoviol]

Hi folks. I picked up my bowlback today and it got me thinking: how does one properly hold a bowlback mandolin, especially if one's belly takes a slightly convex position when seated? Is there some kind of way to make a strap for these guys?

Thx,

MV

[Jim Garber]

What kind of bowlback is it, vintage or contemporary? It is hard to attach a strap unless you are willing to drill holes in the body or the neck.

When I had my convex belly I worked out a way to sort of tuck it under my right arm on the side of my body. I also used a rubber shelf liner or chamois cloth on my lap and used a footrest. I still use the footrest or cross my legs but do not need the cloth on myh lap any more.

The bottom line is you may have to just experiment but it should not be a major obstacle. Don't get too frustrated.

[JeffD]

I play sitting down and I have the mandolin in my lap in front of me, resting on this stuff:

[Jim Garber]

Hah, Jeff: that must be a pretty heavy pile of stuff you have on your lap!

[JeffD]

What is cool is the stuff, (what is the official name for it) the stuff comes in different colors. So I can match, (or tastefully contrast) my clothing.

BTW its also really good to wrap bottles with to take camping. Just sayin....

[Jim Garber]

I can't quite tell but it think it is the same stuff as the rubbery shelf liners. You can get it at the supermarket or a hardware store. I would not keep it in your case, tho. It might affect the finish of your mandolin. The chamois is safer in that regard, tho I never had any problem using the shelf liner stuff either.

[JeffD]

I saw some bowlback players that actually attached the stuff to the back of their instrument. I would never do that myself.

I have used it for years now and I have never had a finish problem. But I suppose its possible.

Once the bowlback is secured from "rolling", I find that a bowlback is more stable than a similarly held arch top. Perhaps the shorter neck or the weight balance.

[bratsche]

I saw some bowlback players that actually attached the stuff to the back of their instrument. I would never do that myself.

Much better to just attach the appropriate color ones to your shirts, no? Shelf-liner as a fashion accessory.

bratsche

[Tavy]

I play sitting down and I have the mandolin in my lap in front of me, resting on this stuff:

That's more or less what I do - though I raise one leg as otherwise the instrument's way too low down - in fact being a rather tall chap, that's still very much the case. I hope Marc Woodward will chip in as he's the only person I've met so far that can quite happily play bowlbacks standing up. I can sort of make that work for a short while and then the whole thing gets away from me! Ergonomically it seems to be the right way to go though...

[Jim Garber]

I saw some bowlback players that actually attached the stuff to the back of their instrument. I would never do that myself.

The famous mandolinist Giuseppe Pettine did that to his prized artist-model Vega. Pictures here.

[Jim Garber]

I saw some bowlback players that actually attached the stuff to the back of their instrument. I would never do that myself.

The famous mandolinist Giuseppe Pettine did that to his prized artist-model Vega. Pictures here.

I hope Marc Woodward will chip in as he's the only person I've met so far that can quite happily play bowlbacks standing up. I can sort of make that work for a short while and then the whole thing gets away from me! Ergonomically it seems to be the right way to go though...

Carlo Aonzo can do it and I have seen him play complete solos like Vivaldi standing up and conducting at the same time. However, for us mortals...

[Chris Berardi]

Carlo Aonzo can do it and I have seen him play complete solos like Vivaldi standing up and conducting at the same time. However, for us mortals...

So can Ugo Orlandi (which is probably where Carlo Aonzo learned it from). I've also noticed that even when he is sitting, Ugo Orlandi holds his mandolin up and not resting on his lap.

[Jim Adwell]

Not too long ago I played a bowlback mando in a play (which was set in 1910 so the bowlback was perfect for it). I had to play standing up wearing a suit and tie and a fake mustache. It really isn't all that hard to do, you place the mandolin higher up on your chest and your right forearm rests next to the tailpiece and holds the mandolin against your body while you play, picking in the sweet spot. I did have to practice for a while to keep it from slipping while I played.

[Tavy]

Carlo Aonzo can do it and I have seen him play complete solos like Vivaldi standing up and conducting at the same time. However, for us mortals...

Ah now that's just not fair!

[Beanzy]

I've gone for the higher up hold as well. The whole thing just sits better and it's more comfortable for me to play like that. Though at first I thought it would be a bother to learn another hold from my carved top one. Looking from above it's held with the mandolin about 45degees angle from your body which gives a really nice straight line for the left arm/wrist. This puts the most pointed part of the bowl just in the gap above your stomach and below/between the pectorals (man-boobs). So the size of gut becomes a bit irrelevant with this hold, a bigger one gives more lower shelf and a smaller one lets it sit deeper in the hollow.
The right arm then has a really nice line following the top and resting on the arm-rest. As people have said you don't need any assistance from a strap or the cloth this way which is a bonus. I still haven't figured out how to do the same with the A type on which I still use a furled strap.

It's been a bit of a revelation to me to use that position and much more liberating in terms of standing up/ walking about the house. Also carrying less kit and clutter and not being tethered to one spot just seems to make it more fun. (not that a cloth is much)

I wonder could the cloth grip folks could get ties with those grippy spots on like they do on biking gloves?

[Martin Jonas]

There are at least three different techniques of holding a bowlback: traditional Italian, modern Italian and modern German. The traditional way is sitting down, with the bowl resting on the right thigh which may be raised if needed. The forearm rests on the bass side of the bowl, a few centimetres above the tailpiece, and the mandolin neck is raised at a shallowish angle to the ground, 30 to 45 degrees. For that posture, an anti-slip mat is essential because of the off-centre torque exerted by the forearm on the bowl. The modern Italian (Orlandi/Aonzo) school of holding bowlbacks is quite different, with the mandolin held higher on the belly with the neck parallel to the floor and the forearm resting on the tailpiece, so that the forearm forms a straight line with the strings and the neck, parellel to the floor. No slip mat is needed as there is no torque on the bowl, and as the mandolin doesn't rest on the thigh, it makes little difference (in theory at least if not necessarily in practice) whether you sit or stand. Modern German technique is somewhat variable, but may involve resting the mandolin on both thighs with only light or no contact between forearm and bowl and the neck more upright than with traditional technique. Need for slip mats depends on how firmly the two thighs stabilise the bowl.

Martin

[AlanN]

Here's Kenny Hall

[JeffD]

When playing my bowlback for a long time, in a long jam or at home I find I do get restless and the angle creeps up, till its almost vertical. Almost like Kenny except on the other leg.

[brunello97]

I admit that one of the reasons I keep playing my bowl (and bulge) backs is that it requires to keep my own bowl and bulge under control. Maintaining my own necessary midsection concavity helps my playing (as well as other things.)

Mick

[Eugene]

I don't have any trouble standing and playing, although vast position shifts are more difficult. I also have dabbled in tractiony stuff on the lap and simply don't like it. I prefer the instrument against plain old clothing. A standing posture is pretty commonly described in the mandolin methods of that last "golden era," often in substantial detail. Pettine goes so far as to say that the mandolin must be held in the same way when seated, almost falling back to the standing position as default. Key is pressure from the right forearm (mostly from gravity and not necessarily from an active and fatiguing engagement of musculature) against the rim of the bowl; this pressure must be applied in a way to leave the muscles of the right wrist free and relaxed. Here's Pettine conducting his business:

[Eugene]

The traditional way is sitting down, with the bowl resting on the right thigh which may be raised if needed. The forearm rests on the bass side of the bowl, a few centimetres above the tailpiece, and the mandolin neck is raised at a shallowish angle to the ground, 30 to 45 degrees. For that posture, an anti-slip mat is essential because of the off-centre torque exerted by the forearm on the bowl.

I think engagement of the "anti-slip mat" is a relatively modern approach to traditional Italian playing posture. I can't recall such things getting common mention in methods of the late 19th-early 20th c., and there are plenty of images from such methods where no mats are visible: e.g., Pisani (1899):




The modern German approach often manifests itself in a posture very similar to that commonly used for modern classical guitar, usually with the left leg elevated. It works pretty well for the much wider soundboxes typical of modern German mandolins, but I find it tough to make comfortable with narrower bowls of the Neapolitan paradigm. For the Neapolitan type, I find it much more comfortable to elevate the right leg, either in crossing it over the left or with foot stool, and maintain pressure with the right forearm.

[AlanN]

I don't have any trouble standing and playing, although vast position shifts are more difficult. I also have dabbled in tractiony stuff on the lap and simply don't like it. I prefer the instrument against plain old clothing. A standing posture is pretty commonly described in the mandolin methods of that last "golden era," often in substantial detail. Pettine goes so far as to say that the mandolin must be held in the same way when seated, almost falling back to the standing position as default. Key is pressure from the right forearm, mostly from gravity and not necessarily from an active and fatiguing engagement of musculature, against the rim of the bowl; this pressure must be applied in a way to leave the muscles of the right wrist free and relaxed. Here's Pettine conducting his business:

Now I know where Bill Monroe got the idea for the chop chord

[Chris Berardi]

I can't seem to figure this out by looking at the pictures I've seen, due to the angle they are taken at. When you are holding a bowlback, what can you see of the strings and fretboard? Can you see all the strings and all the positions on the fretboard, or can you only see the top G string and the top edge of the fretboard and you just have to know where any single position is and what string your pick is on?

[bratsche]

IMO, it's a good idea, no matter whether you're playing a bowlback or any other style of instrument, to endeavor to develop a tactile feel early on for those things. A view of the top edge of the fretboard should then be enough to guide you. Practicing in the dark or with your eyes closed is helpful. Or you can use a mirror, if you absolutely must. Otherwise you run the risk of developing neck and/or back problems from hunching over to see what you're doing.

bratsche

[AlanN]

Yes, in the words of Tommy

See Me
Hear Me
Feel Me