Short Visit to RetroFret

[Jim Garber]

I had some nice quality time at RetroFret on Saturday. Primarily I communed with the 24 Loar for a good solid 25 minutes or so. It is very interesting but what I did realize how there is a very subtle headroom effect that this one (and prob the others) have. You can play a note with a large range of dynamics that you don't really realize until you play it for awhile. Few of us who don't own these get to do that or realize what is there. Mind blowing.

I also picked up a modern F5 made by a very good maker but that one lacked the depth of tone, tho I have a feeling it would be an excellent bluegrass instrument. Lots of emphasis on the treble but not much on the midrange or bass.

After that, this 23 F4 was prob one of the best sounding of that ilk. Definitely worth looking at if you are looking for a vintage F4. Very sweet.

Also surprising was this 34 F10. This was quite surprising. Tone of course was very different from the Loar and the F4 but actually was a nice mandolin. The surprising part was playing up the neck there was a lot of sweetness there that I did not expect.

Very surprising was this Harmony H8025. It was much better than I imagined it would be and played well. Cool looking, too.

The only non-mandolin instrument I played was this 1938 Martin 000-18. Prob one of the best small guitars I have ever played and capable of some serious volume and tone. Yikes!

The usual: NFI on my part. None of these instruments are mine on consignment there.

[wsugai]

Jim,

Did you find out how much money they want for that '24 Loar?

[Jim Garber]

I believe they are asking $195K, but don't quote me.

[Larry S Sherman]

They are asking $195K.

Ooops...quoted you!

Larry

[Gary Hedrick]

Did you play the blond Kimble??

That is one of the most beautiful mandoins I've seen

[grassrootphilosopher]

Primarily I communed with the 24 Loar... I did realize how there is a very subtle headroom effect that this one (and prob the others) have. You can play a note with a large range of dynamics that you don't really realize until you play it for awhile. ... Mind blowing.

I also picked up a modern F5 made by a very good maker but that one lacked the depth of tone...Lots of emphasis on the treble but not much on the midrange or bass.

...Also surprising was this 34 F10. This was quite surprising. Tone of course was very different from the Loar and the F4 but actually was a nice mandolin. The surprising part was playing up the neck there was a lot of sweetness there that I did not expect.

I hear you about the Lloyd Loar F-5.

Now did you play the modern F-5 after playing the Lloyd Loar? This would probably account for the opinion about a lack of tone. I had that happen to me a 24 Loar against my own instrument. Can I get you into telling which modern make you played, please.

And could you please elaborate about the tone, playability, carrying power etc. of the F-10. I am very interested in a description. I know that it´s a short necked instrument. What´s the neck wood? Mahogany? Maple?

Did you play the F-10 after the Loar?

The F-10 is at Retrofret for at least 5 years. It had a price tag of 24.000,- USD once. While the instrument is rare, I found the price rather unatractive (still do, when I think about the availability of a "Bill Monroe" F-7 for about 12.000,- USD).

[Jim Garber]

I hear you about the Lloyd Loar F-5.

Now did you play the modern F-5 after playing the Lloyd Loar? This would probably account for the opinion about a lack of tone. I had that happen to me a 24 Loar against my own instrument. Can I get you into telling which modern make you played, please.

All right, it was that blond Kimble. I have played a few Kimbles and have loved the sound but not after a Loar. I did not want to give an unfair review of that one. In fact, it is an excellent instrument, well made but also bear in mind that I am not a bluegrass player -- I think (as I mentioned above) that the Kimble would be an excellent BG band instrument and would cut thru as needed. I agree that it is beautiful as well.

And could you please elaborate about the tone, playability, carrying power etc. of the F-10. I am very interested in a description. I know that it´s a short necked instrument. What´s the neck wood? Mahogany? Maple?

Did you play the F-10 after the Loar?

The F-10 is at Retrofret for at least 5 years. It had a price tag of 24.000,- USD once. While the instrument is rare, I found the price rather unatractive (still do, when I think about the availability of a "Bill Monroe" F-7 for about 12.000,- USD).

I played the F-10 before the Loar. Yes, it was at RetroFret but according to Peter, it was sold and now is back again. I really expected a not too appealing tone but was surprised that I liked the way that one sounded. I think much of the price is based on rariity and collectability. Frankly, I do like the black finish but the short neck always looks odd to me with the bridge in the wrong place.

I am not sure of the neck wood on the F-10 and, sadly, I really didn't have much time to give it a proper tryout. It just sounded better than most 1930s or 1940s Gibsons I have played (with the exception of F-5s like Barry Mitterhoffs). If I make it down there again and it is still there I will take another whack at an in depth playing and description.

[William Smith]

I played the F-10 before the Loar. Yes, it was at RetroFret but according to Peter, it was sold and now is back again. I really expected a not too appealing tone but was surprised that I liked the way that one sounded. I think much of the price is based on rariity and collectability. Frankly, I do like the black finish but the short neck always looks odd to me with the bridge in the wrong place.

I am not sure of the neck wood on the F-10 and, sadly, I really didn't have much time to give it a proper tryout. It just sounded better than most 1930s or 1940s Gibsons I have played (with the exception of F-5s like Barry Mitterhoffs). If I make it down there again and it is still there I will take another whack at an in depth playing and description. [/QUOTE]

The neck wood is mahogany, and the price reflects its rareness, there may only be 3 or 4 and one of those is for sure converted by Gilchrist for the Dawg! And some of those 7's-10's and 12's sound pretty darn good with the short neck, David Harvey told me once that his dad said that "F-7s are some of the sweetest sounding little mandolins out there" Somethin like that anyway.
I was following that F-10 and it was sold to a guy in one of them New England states,I just can't remember the state for sure but he told me it sounded good but wanted to sell her no swapin so I lost out as I wanted her to go with my Prewar 7 and 12.

I think its a fantastic lookin mandolin and now that you said it sounds pretty darn good I'm drooooooooooooolin!

[grassrootphilosopher]

Thanks a bunch Jim for your clarification.

I asked about the Kimble because I think that after (!) playing a Lloyd Loar mandolin not many instruments stand up well. From all that I know - though I have not played a Kimble yet but would like to - Kimbles are very good mandolins.

I think that your description of the Lloyd Loar mandolin and the Kimble is a very important statement. When I had my only Lloyd Loar experience I first thought the sound not appealing. But when I played it back to back with my Duff F-5 it was exactly like you stated it. Especially the dynamics and the overall musicality of the Lloyd Loar F-5s are inspiring. And after playing the Lloyd Loar F-5 I found my Duff F-5 "lame", or let´s rather say lacking (which it definately is not). But I´d like to put my Duff up to a Kimble, just to find out...

I also like your statement about the F-10. True, the rarity plays a role concerning the price. But I have seen the price come down on F-7s (here on the classifieds and at Charles Johnson´s website when he had one) over the last couple of years. But I like their appearance.

So bluegrasser78, how would you describe the tone and sound of an F-7 (F-10 and/or F-12) as opposed to a Lloyd Loar F-5 ?

[Ken Waltham]

It's very often tough to chime in on these type of discussions without sounding like a pompous know it all, but Jim has really hit at the truth here. Modern mandolins are wonderful, particularly one like a Kimble, but, my sincere opinion is that they pale beside a Loar signed F5. Or, a mid 20's Fern, for that matter.
A Duff is a really fine modern mandolin, IMHO, and I am pleased to see someone can be so honest and candid as to say it was somewhat "lame" after playing the Loar.
I know the Loar at retrofret, and have played it 3 or 4 different times. It is like many, it has those "ancient tones", that I just love.
I wish you could play my F5's, to see and hear even more of a sampling of Loar tones.
They are (Loars) IMHO, like my 5 daughters. They are all beautiful, the same, but different. The complete family resembalance, but, with an individuality as well.
Some of the marvelous Loar or early Fern sound may just simply be due the simple act of aging. I really think so.
I have two, and they share many similarities, but some really cool differences as well. One, the much more graceful, smooth 1924 Virzi sound, and the other the open, round, explosive non Virzi 1923 sound. Differences in colour and neck profiles for sure, different logo styles, and even inlays. But, they share a definate family sound, that is there in both of them. Even more so than a Loar and a Fern, I think.
Anyway, for the greatest mando site in the world, full of mando nuts like myself, I would encourage anyone who can afford it, to buy a Loar, and spend a few years with it. It will open your ears to a wide range of subtle nuances that is always completely satisfying to the player.

[Jim Garber]

Anyway, for the greatest mando site in the world, full of mando nuts like myself, I would encourage anyone who can afford it, to buy a Loar, and spend a few years with it. It will open your ears to a wide range of subtle nuances that is always completely satisfying to the player.

Now... if we could just start a Loar rental program or a Loar lending library....

[Jim Nollman]

May I be first to apply for a card to use the Loar Lending Library?

[Timbofood]

Can I be second?

[Jim Garber]

I always thought that libraries should expand their stock to musical instruments. I have actually lent out a mandolin or two, a B&D banjo, a fiddle and a classical guitar I had to various friends who needed them. Why not? I can't play all of them at once, right?

Anyway, here is your card. Enjoy!

[Timbofood]

Thanks Jim, one more thing to stuff into a wallet!

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I always thought that libraries should expand their stock to musical instruments. I have actually lent out a mandolin or two, a B&D banjo, a fiddle and a classical guitar I had to various friends who needed them. Why not? I can't play all of them at once, right?

Anyway, here is your card. Enjoy!

Jim, any luck with your new business, yet? Your Public Library's reputation is already debatable. That ain't no Loar, it's a Derrington.

[Jim Garber]

Jim, any luck with your new business, yet? Your Public Library's reputation is already debatable. That ain't no Loar, it's a Derrington.

Good eye, Henry. OTOH we never said we would just lend out only Loars. Some folks do not own houses for the collateral. For those folks we have less exhorbitant mandolins.

[michaelcj]

Our Library here on Lopez Island DOES lend out instruments. Granted they are import student quality but none the less there are a few guitars, several fiddles, and even..god forbid.. a banjo, plus some ukes. Haven't noticed a mandolin, guess I'll have to mention that to them.
I'm on their "phone tree" for repairs if they are necessary and practical.

Mike J

[Jim Garber]

Washington is a progressive state. That is great! I wonder if there was someone who donated money or instruments to the library to provide that service. I am thinking that maybe that would be a great idea for some of mine that don't get played.

[BradKlein]

If it hasn't been said already, some (many?) music schools have instrument lending libraries, including Julliard here in NYC. Just as the Steve Martin Prize brought a 'classical music' concept to bluegrass, I would think that many schools would welcome the philanthropist with pockets deep enough to establish a lending library for young pros in Jazz and other genres.

[Jim Garber]

Brad: of course it is wonderful that a serious classical or jazz student who cannot afford a top notch instrument can borrow one, but what is nice about the Washington example is that it allows kids who are just starting out to fool around with an instrument. I do recall when I was younger (I think) that our orchestra and band lent out or rented instruments and that is the same today here where I live. OTOH how does a budding mandolinist, banjoist or guitarist borrow one -- unless the school system is so enlightened to have a curriculum that includes those instruments.

[William Smith]

So bluegrasser78, how would you describe the tone and sound of an F-7 (F-10 and/or F-12) as opposed to a Lloyd Loar F-5 ?[/QUOTE]

Well there really is no comparison way different mandolins , Loars are Kings because of woods/construction your going to get power and sustain,piercing highs and growling lows and a midrange that'll make ya want to slap someone cause it sounds so good.Ken Waltham said it best on the Loars in an earlier post.
While 7's and such can have great tone,they can't compete with the volume and tone of a Loar. They have short hogwood necks,rosewood boards and the 30's mandolins were not carved with the care like the 20's mandolins,a bit heavy!
Now ya take off that original neck on your 7 and get an F-5 neck put on her and you might have a little something,I wouldn't recommend doin that to an instrument in great shape,I did it to 2 of mine because one was already done when I bought it and the other one was played very hard over the years,major finish distressing,fretboard that was all wavy and pretty much dried out to powder,crack repair on side,etc...I don't think I'd convert a real nice F-7 and as far as a 10-12,well the 3or4 of each that may be out there,I wouldn't do it,Keep em original, they sound great maybe not Loar great but great,and they are a vintage prewar Gibson,not too many around!,Maybe 30-40 F-7's, I'd like to start a list, the Journal/archives only show a handful of em.
Hope I didn't ramble too much for ya all,I tend to do that!

[Mandobar]

I've lent instruments out. It works out ok sometimes.....others well,.......

[BradKlein]

Someone at the Cafe described an 'instrument zoo' at a festival, where kids could try out a variety of instruments, perhaps for the first time. Great idea.

Here's more on the Retrofret F-10 from back when it went on sale the first time, 5 years ago. Great instrument in my opinion.

[Jim Garber]

the most unique among the bunch was an F-10 they just got in. very cool. it is all black, front, back and neck, and f-holed, but for some reason it has a short neck. it had a very neat boxey vintage tone and played great. i was expecting it to be more of a collectible, but i could see it being a nice player in the right environment. all on it is seemingly original, and apparently there are only a few known ones in existence, so that's pretty special.

Your opinion was similar to mine. I liked it tho not sure to pay that price even tho it is now about $10k less than it was when you posted back then. I like your description of "boxey vintage tone". The tone of that one was pretty unique -- I am not sure I have ever played any Gibson that sounded like that. I guess it was sort of a hybrid -- like an F4 with f-holes (oddly enough). I would imagine that if it weren't for the rarity it would be on par with an F4 in price.

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