zouk hunt 2013!

[Mike Anderson]

Hi all, I am planning to buy a long-scale Irish bouzouki in the near future. Was in a band for years playing trad and Canadian East Coast tunes using a cheap Mexican cittern that used to be offered by Lark in the Morning (anyone remember those? That's me with mine in my avatar).

It served me pretty well, then fatherhood and greater responsibility moved me to drop out of gigging. Now I find with my son older and more independent I have an overpowering urge to get back into it, with something better to play as well.

In the best of all worlds I'd go for a Crump or maybe a Fylde archtop, or in my wildest dreams a Nyberg, but for now I think I have to settle for reality, i.e. something not luthier-made. Been checking out, in no particular order, the Trinity College TM-375, Ashbury AM-375 (I get the feeling they're the same instrument with different badges?), and for a bit more money the Ashbury Lindisfarne which really appeals to me as it resembles a Fylde with its nice big onion shaped body. I have pretty much written off Johnson, my rationale (such as it is) being that for that price I'll be getting around the same quality as my old cittern. If anyone knows otherwise I'm all ears.

There's a lot of discussion here and other places like The Session about TC, but not much info on the Ashburys. One of the big bugbears for me around TC is that it will require immediate alterations to the nut and saddle before I even get proper strings on it, due to the bizarre decision to put the two low courses in octaves. So my question is: any experience with Ashbury here? Both models are available through Hobgoblin USA. Would be really grateful for any direction, not excluding "don't be dumb, just save for a Crump."

EDIT: just spent the last while comparing photos of the Ashbury and TC 375 models and heck - it's OBVIOUS they're the same instrument. I think the Johnson MA-400 probably is too. Choose your preferred headstock inlay I guess. Also means they would all require nut/saddle changes.

EDIT II: some might be wondering why I have an issue with having to alter the nut and saddle. It's not the work, it's the nagging thought that maybe the instrument wouldn't hold up under switching to unisons in the lower courses since it was designed for octaves. Anyone's thoughts on this would be really welcome - would love to hear from TC/Ashbury/Johnson owners who've done this.

[Pete Braccio]

Hi Mike,

I have no idea what your financials are, but if I were you, I'd keep my eye out for a used Peterson (or even a new one) instead of a Trinity. You'll get a much better instrument for a few hundred more if you buy used. You also might want to look at the Lafferty. I have not played them, but they look good as well.

Elderly and Gryphon Strings usually have the Petersons (but neither one have them in stock right now). The Mandolin Store sells the Lafferties.

Pete

[Mike Anderson]

Hi Mike,

I have no idea what your financials are, but if I were you, I'd keep my eye out for a used Peterson (or even a new one) instead of a Trinity. You'll get a much better instrument for a few hundred more if you buy used. You also might want to look at the Lafferty. I have not played them, but they look good as well.

Elderly and Gryphon Strings usually have the Petersons (but neither one have them in stock right now). The Mandolin Store sells the Lafferties.

Pete

Hi Pete, thanks very much for responding...

I guess to be honest, my financials are variable depending on what I decide to get. I have a wife to answer to, so less expense = more domestic harmony. And if an instrument is just crap and barely playable, or sounds wrong, or folds in half after a few years, I would like to know about it so I can strike it off the list of possibles.

The Lafferty is new to me - thanks for that info. It's interesting though - octaves in the lower courses again! It's been a while so maybe I've missed something. Does everybody do them that way and is that the sound desired by players and listeners?

Guess that's another subject altogether, but it seems to me some bouzouki makers are confused and are making octave mandos without knowing that's what they're doing?

[Dan Hulse]

Hi Mike, I've owned/gigged with a Celtic Star strung in octave for several years, until picking up a Petersen level 2. The CS has a built. In pick up and sounds better than the Petersen with a Fishman plugged in, although the Petersen sounds better acoustically. I have that strung unison. My band mate was impressed enough by my CS that we also got one and strung it unison. I never played a Trinity. I played on a nice zouk at Dusty Strings in Seattle last month. Sorry, can't recall the maker, but I think it was a by a West coast builder. Btw, I was sold on octave strings until I tried unison. Unison works better if you play closed position chords up the neck. Octave strung will be out of tune due to the string thickness difference.

[Dan Hulse]

The difference between a zouk and an octave mando has to do with the scale length, not how it is strung btw.

[Mike Anderson]

The difference between a zouk and an octave mando has to do with the scale length, not how it is strung btw.

Hi 1 - 2 many - thanks for your response. I have seen short scale zouks that seemed to be not all that different from octave mandos to me; I figured that if someone strings a bouzouki in octaves that they are creating a member of the mandolin family, and that the Irish bouzouki is a beast unto itself, but that's me. Seems to be a lot of variations on the theme over the years.

Will check out Celtic Star, thanks for the info. Still hoping someone can chime in on altering the Vietnamese instruments to get them in unison stringing, and the Ashbury Lindisfarne info would be a great bonus.

[allenhopkins]

1. Reason you don't read too much about Ashbury is that they're not generally distributed in the US. Now that Hobgoblin has a US outlet, we may find more about them.

2. Greek bouzoukis often feature octaved pairs on the lower strings, which may lead contemporary builders to set up their instruments similarly. Doubt that you'll find damage from going to unison stringing, since many people go that route.

3. You're probably correct that there's one Asian factory supplying most of the entry-level bouzoukis and octave mandolins, hence the similarities. Celtic Star instruments are attributed to Romania, where quite a number of entry-level instruments originate, brands like Hora, Ozark, et. al.

4. There are also Greek bouzoukis available at competitive prices, at "world music" stores like this one.

[Dan Hulse]

Beware of bargain priced Greek zouks as many are created as wall hangers & tourist souveniers. I bought a Greek zouk in Greece about 15 years ago that was supposed to be a mid-level professional model that did not age well. Most do not have truss rods.

[Mike Anderson]

Thanks Allen. Not looking for a Greek bouzouki at all, thanks for the thought though.

I may very well end up with a TC/Ashbury/Johnson if reports are good, and I do see a lot of owners are enjoying theirs.

cheers,
Mike.

[Tom Haywood]

Mike, I would appreciate some feedback from you and other long scale bouzouki players about the sound of the one I am finishing building. There are a couple of recent videos and a sound file in the Bouzoukis In Progress thread. I don't play any Celtic music and have only played a little on Greek bouzoukis, so I hope to get someone who does to record this thing. The scale length is 25.25" (641mm). The top is mahogany to get a bit darker sound. The strings are unison. Looking for honest, experienced opinions. Not trying to sell it to you, as it is not a carved top instrument and the price may be above what you're looking for. Please post any comments in that thread so I can keep up with them. Thank you.

[Tom Haywood]

Looking at the string discussion on the Sessions site, it seems the players are split about evenly on unison vs. octave courses. Making the original saddle and nut for octaves makes it easy to change the slots to unison if somebody wants it. My concern is that the string spacing for octaves might be too close for complete comfort if the slots are widened for larger unison strings. Probably not a big deal. Some adjustment to the saddle would be necessary too, to get good intonation. Not really possible if you start with large strings.

[Mike Anderson]

That's quite a lovely sound Tom, really nice work.

I think I'm going to shift gears a bit and keep an open mind about the possibility of lower courses in octaves.

[zoukboy]

I think I'm going to shift gears a bit and keep an open mind about the possibility of lower courses in octaves.

Mike,

If you decide to try octave pairs in the bass you might consider whether you want to put the higher octave string above or below the other lower octave string. Greek bouzoukis (and Rickenbacker electric 12 string guitars) have the octave below the other, while most 12 string guitars (other than the Ric) have the octave on top.

Another way to think of this is which string is contacted first on a downstroke of the pick, the higher or the lower in the pair? It makes a significant difference. With the lower string on top you will get more of the fundamental string on accented notes but with the octave on top you will hear more of that string on accented notes.

FWIW, I prefer having the lower tuned string on top. Also, I split the difference between unison or octave stringing and have only the low G string in an octave pair. I find this minimizes the confusion that sometimes ensues when playing melodies - sometimes, when a tune moves from the high D string to the A string and then down to the low D, if there is an octave pair on the low D course then it can sound like the melody is going down and up at the same time.

I also like have just the G octaved because I often play accompaniment on just the top three courses (DAD) and when I bring in the G course for a bass line or for fuller chord voicings it can sound almost as if another instrument has been added because the sonic character of that course is just different enough.

On the other hand, I did spend a few years playing a borrowed instrument that had the low G and D both in octave pairs with the higher string on top, and while the at was a different sound than I prefer today I did find that it was a fairly simple matter to "dial out" or attenuated the octave strings by subtly palm muting those two courses at the bridge.

[Mike Anderson]

Thanks for your reply Roger - your reputation precedes you! All interesting thoughts and ideas, I have lots to ponder here.

[lucho]

I have tried both Pac rim bouzoukis, plus a Fender and Celtic star and Musikalia equivalents..... acoustically the Musikalia zouks sound better..... TC and Ashbury are pretty alike, the older TC first built in Japan, then in Korea and later in China.... Ashbury sold in UK were built in Korea and now in China.... and these are absolutely clones of TC.... Fender had a different fixed bridge and the instrument was built in Korea.... All other fixtures are absolutely the same in these pac rim axes. Celtic Star are lighter built in Romania under some german management I understand, and their pickups are good enough... Finally, Musikalia built in Italy have all kind of levels for their instruments but the basic is really lacking and plain.... but sounds good.... Still for all these reasonsI keep some of them in my collection http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/al...chmentid=94962

[Mike Anderson]

I have tried both Pac rim bouzoukis, plus a Fender and Celtic star and Musikalia equivalents..... acoustically the Musikalia zouks sound better..... TC and Ashbury are pretty alike, the older TC first built in Japan, then in Korea and later in China.... Ashbury sold in UK were built in Korea and now in China.... and these are absolutely clones of TC.... Fender had a different fixed bridge and the instrument was built in Korea.... All other fixtures are absolutely the same in these pac rim axes. Celtic Star are lighter built in Romania under some german management I understand, and their pickups are good enough... Finally, Musikalia built in Italy have all kind of levels for their instruments but the basic is really lacking and plain.... but sounds good.... Still for all these reasons I keep some of them in my collection http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/al...chmentid=94962

Thanks very much for the thoughts lucho. I am seriously leaning toward one of the pacific rim instruments now. As a value to quality proposition the reports seem to be pretty good. And the fact is that unless I want to wait a long time (and I don't) I am on a limited budget for getting something in the near term. Esthetically they also really appeal to me; they are IMO very nicely proportioned and appointed, and in my experience there's a lot to be said for the inspiration that comes from an instrument you truly like the looks of.

Longer-term maybe I'll go a for a luthier made instrument, but this could be a good time to get a TC or Johnson, both available for under $600. That's a nice bunch you have, thanks for pointing me to the pic! As a side note, do you (or anyone here, but you seem to have a pretty comprehensive approach to the mandolin family) know what mandola Brian McDonagh of Dervish is playing here?



You can see the headstock much better in this cropped photo:

[zoukboy]

That is a mandola made by Peter Abnett, the English luthier who built the first Irish bouzouki:

http://hspeek.home.xs4all.nl/bouzouk...abnett_p3.html

I got to play that a few years ago at Brian's pub in Sligo. Nice instrument.

[Mike Anderson]

That is a mandola made by Peter Abnett, the English luthier who built the first Irish bouzouki:

http://hspeek.home.xs4all.nl/bouzouk...abnett_p3.html

I got to play that a few years ago at Brian's pub in Sligo. Nice instrument.

Thank you Roger! I am a huge Dervish fan from the first CD - just wish I could get my paws on Brian's earlier work with Oisin. eBay always has a few LPs but I am not set up for digitization (i.e. no turntable).

[otterly2k]

Hi Mike-
You might consider posting an ad in the Wanted section of the Classifieds. My impression is that there are likely players around who tried zouks (and/or octaves) and never quite cozied up to them... and might be interested in unloading an under-utilized instrument. I went looking for an OM for a friend that way and got MANY replies. Of course, you have to pay close attention to condition issues, but you might just be able to find a great pre-owned, affordable instrument that way.

KE

[Mike Anderson]

Hi Mike-
You might consider posting an ad in the Wanted section of the Classifieds. My impression is that there are likely players around who tried zouks (and/or octaves) and never quite cozied up to them... and might be interested in unloading an under-utilized instrument. I went looking for an OM for a friend that way and got MANY replies. Of course, you have to pay close attention to condition issues, but you might just be able to find a great pre-owned, affordable instrument that way.

KE

What a great idea otterly2k, thanks! Am traveling for a week starting tomorrow and am not gonna bother with computers during that time (a relief sometimes, y'know?), but will be back in the saddle after that.

[Mike Anderson]

Just realized something else: the TC and other Pacific rim instruments are strung like a Greek bouzouki (obvious to some of you I'm sure, but this is my second instrument in the mando family, and plenty of knowledge gaps to fill)!

To those of you who've used these instruments, do you tend to string them with Greek bouzouki strings, or alter the nut and saddle and go with unison stringing? Thanks in advance for any info...

[Steve L]

Having octave courses is not the same as being strung like a Greek bouzouki which is tuned C F A D. If you want to tune to GDAD or GDAE, ADAD, etc, you're going to need heavier strings than the Greek folks use. I think most Irish Zouk players prefer unison stringing. I like the octave courses but I'm lucky enough to have more than one instrument and have both options available.

[Mike Anderson]

Having octave courses is not the same as being strung like a Greek bouzouki which is tuned C F A D. If you want to tune to GDAD or GDAE, ADAD, etc, you're going to need heavier strings than the Greek folks use. I think most Irish Zouk players prefer unison stringing. I like the octave courses but I'm lucky enough to have more than one instrument and have both options available.

Dang, and there was me thinking "problem solved". I guess if I am ever to change strings (heh) and barring custom sets, it's nut and saddle alteration and likely the D'Addario Irish strings. Thanks Steve!

[zoukboy]

The D'Addario J81 set is a good choice for unison basses on a TC (or similar) bouzoukis. GHS makes a set with octave pairs. If you go the TC route, Mike, it's good to know that many folks have done upgrades on them with good results. A cast tailpiece and new one-piece bridge can make a big difference.

[Steve L]

I know Elderly sells GHS Irish bouzouki sets in medium and light gauge with octave courses. I use them on my Trinity College all the time.