Old Bouzouki--Can any one help identify?

[Millerberger]

I picked this up the other day, didn't cost me much, and I know nothing about Bouzouki's other than 8 string B's can't be much older than the 1940's.

Does any one recognize what this particular B might be worth, where it came from etc...

[zoukboy]

I had one like that a few years back. You can tell it's a cheapie by the painted headstock. I wouldn't think it would be worth much over $100, assuming all the ribs are sound with no cracks and the neck is straight and not in need of a reset. The frets on mine were pretty crappy, too.

BTW, the tetrachordo (4 course) was championed starting in1954 by Manolis Hiotis, so you are not likely to find one made prior to that (although at least one example of a Greek bouzouki bodied octave mandolin has been reported, but it was not considered a bouzouki because of its tuning).

[allenhopkins]

...at least one example of a Greek bouzouki bodied octave mandolin has been reported, but it was not considered a bouzouki because of its tuning...

Like this four-course one by A Stathopoulo, dated 1911?

[Graham McDonald]

Like this four-course one by A Stathopoulo, dated 1911?

From the USD website:

Built originally with six strings (three double courses), but modified to eight strings (four double courses), probably in the 1950s, when the first eight-stringed bouzoukis were created. According to Andreas Nikatos, a bouzouki player active today, "the cool thing about an old original bouzouki is that there was always 8 tuners on the peghead, even though there were only 6 strings. The originals used mandolin parts, and the mandolin uses 8 strings; therefore, the peghead is original even though there are 8 tuners."

[allenhopkins]

From the USD website:
Built originally with six strings (three double courses), but modified to eight strings (four double courses), probably in the 1950s, when the first eight-stringed bouzoukis were created. According to Andreas Nikatos, a bouzouki player active today, "the cool thing about an old original bouzouki is that there was always 8 tuners on the peghead, even though there were only 6 strings. The originals used mandolin parts, and the mandolin uses 8 strings; therefore, the peghead is original even though there are 8 tuners."

Thanx for the information; something I did not know! Surprising that the builders didn't cut down the mandolin tuners, if they only needed three on a side.

[zoukboy]

From the USD website:

Built originally with six strings (three double courses), but modified to eight strings (four double courses), probably in the 1950s, when the first eight-stringed bouzoukis were created. According to Andreas Nikatos, a bouzouki player active today, "the cool thing about an old original bouzouki is that there was always 8 tuners on the peghead, even though there were only 6 strings. The originals used mandolin parts, and the mandolin uses 8 strings; therefore, the peghead is original even though there are 8 tuners."

Yep, that's because the very first 'modern' Greek staved back bouzoukis were made with re-purposed Neapolitan mandola bodies to which a bouzouki neck was attached. They re-used the hardware, adapting it for 6 strings in 3 courses as Graham said. The organologists refer to this transitional instrument as the 'mandola-bozouki.' This was around 1914 in Piraeus, the port of Athens. Many of the older photos of early rebetes show the four-on-a-side tuners on 3 course instruments:





You can clearly see the three courses in the B&W image and the eight tuners.

[Graham McDonald]

Yep, that's because the very first 'modern' Greek staved back bouzoukis were made with re-purposed Neapolitan mandola bodies to which a bouzouki neck was attached. They re-used the hardware, adapting it for 6 strings in 3 courses as Graham said. The organologists refer to this transitional instrument as the 'mandola-bozouki.' This was around 1914 in Piraeus, the port of Athens. Many of the older photos of early rebetes show the four-on-a-side tuners on 3 course instruments:

The more I think about the idea of adapting a mandola body the less likely I think it is. I have read it a few time over the years, but never with any attribution. I suspect that mandolas were built in relatively small numbers and I would wonder about the economics of buying them up and shipping them to Athens. There are practical things about cutting the neck off (as the the neck block was an extension of the neck itself) and attaching a new, longer neck to the remnant block inside the body. Happy to be proved wrong is someone comes up with a pic of an early bouzouki with an identifiably Neapolitan body. Certainly the size of a Neapolitan mandola would have been been a useful starting point for a staved bouzouki body and I can imagine the marketing of the 'new' built up instrument instead of the older carved-from-the-solid instruments.

cheers

g

[zoukboy]

The more I think about the idea of adapting a mandola body the less likely I think it is. I have read it a few time over the years, but never with any attribution. I suspect that mandolas were built in relatively small numbers and I would wonder about the economics of buying them up and shipping them to Athens. There are practical things about cutting the neck off (as the the neck block was an extension of the neck itself) and attaching a new, longer neck to the remnant block inside the body. Happy to be proved wrong is someone comes up with a pic of an early bouzouki with an identifiably Neapolitan body. Certainly the size of a Neapolitan mandola would have been been a useful starting point for a staved bouzouki body and I can imagine the marketing of the 'new' built up instrument instead of the older carved-from-the-solid instruments.

cheers

g

Hi Graham,

My source is: Risto Pekka Pennanen, Westernisation and Modernisation in Greek Popular Music, University of Tampere, Finland 1999.

I have an excerpt that I would be glad to send you...

[dmcginnis]

Roger...you are becoming so academic...one might think you were pursuing a PhD or something!

[Graham McDonald]

Hi Graham,

My source is: Risto Pekka Pennanen, Westernisation and Modernisation in Greek Popular Music, University of Tampere, Finland 1999.

I have an excerpt that I would be glad to send you...

I would be delighted to read it!

Thanks

[zoukboy]

Roger...you are becoming so academic...one might think you were pursuing a PhD or something!

Ha ha ha! But you are the one who mentioned attribution! ;-)

[zoukboy]

I would be delighted to read it!

Thanks

Will send it to you.

[alk]

I don't understand where this re-purposed mandola bodies for early bouzoukis rumor comes from.
Yes it might have happened , people also converted some, mandolins few people still do, especially amateurs wishing to reuse a solid body of an instrument beyond repair (why not).
However , the bowlback tradition in Greece starts much earlier than the modern bouzouki. There are surviving examples of bouzoukis dating back from the late 1800s, made in Greece, by Greek makers such as Mourtzinos, Kopeliadis, Gkelis, Evangelidis.
All of them accomplished makers. I think it is a bit unfair to say that the modern bouzouki started off by taking apart Neapolitan mandolas.
Yes it's a hybrid that borrows elements of western and eastern making but there is a musical reason for that: the well tempered system....Fixed frets and metal strings require a more..robust construction.
However there are more than a few examples of very fine and very old greek bouzoukia. Please let's not assume they are...recycled Italian mandolas.
Regarding the number of strings: Again people did whatever they wanted..there wasn't a fixed way of tuning or number of strings.
A couple of Stathopoulos I saw had 7 strings on them ( a triple bass string...)

[zoukboy]

Beekeeper,

It's not a 'rumor'. It is evidence from interviews with people who were there at the time (see source above).

And no one said there were no bouzoukia prior to that. The point is that - according to those sources - the staved back construction comes in at that time.

[alk]

thank you zoukboy
What sort of time period are we talking about exactly?
I am certainly not trying to wave the Greek flag here. The trouble with this theory is that ...there are no instruments to support it..Yes you might find the odd amateur conversion of a mandola into a 3 course bouzouki...and I think Tsitsanis had that done to his...But as I said...there are dozens of local makers working in athens, making bowl backs for hundreds of years.
THis is the oldest surviving bowl back I know of, it was built in Athens c.1835
. Besides, a lot of the early bouzoukis have a very different bowl shape to the Neopolital "almond" shape.
Here are a few examples ...
The Mourtzinos bouzouki, late 1800s

Anonymous c.1880 , found in Sparta

To me:yes ,, modern bouzouki clearly borrows the more sturdy elements of the mandolin bowl back construction and makers like Stathopoulos explore the mandolin shape. However this comes as an addition to a pre-existing school of making bowl back staved instruments.

Again, I don't want to sound biased, I am only interested in learning..and if there are any bouzoukis out there , either with Neapolitan labels left inside or with parts that a specialist can identify as Neopolitan, I would love to examine them and learn from them. To this day , I haven't seen any.
Besides, a mandola was always a secondary instrument with no solo repertoire....if you go on ebay you will see 100s of mandolins sold, and maybe 1 or 2 bowl back mandolas, hardly any from Naples . There was never a huge demand for them....Few were made.

[zoukboy]

thank you zoukboy
What sort of time period are we talking about exactly?
I am certainly not trying to wave the Greek flag here. The trouble with this theory is that ...there are no instruments to support it..Yes you might find the odd amateur conversion of a mandola into a 3 course bouzouki...and I think Tsitsanis had that done to his...But as I said...there are dozens of local makers working in athens, making bowl backs for hundreds of years.
THis is the oldest surviving bowl back I know of, it was built in Athens c.1835
. Besides, a lot of the early bouzoukis have a very different bowl shape to the Neopolital "almond" shape.
Here are a few examples ...
The Mourtzinos bouzouki, late 1800s

Anonymous c.1880 , found in Sparta

To me:yes ,, modern bouzouki clearly borrows the more sturdy elements of the mandolin bowl back construction and makers like Stathopoulos explore the mandolin shape. However this comes as an addition to a pre-existing school of making bowl back staved instruments.

Again, I don't want to sound biased, I am only interested in learning..and if there are any bouzoukis out there , either with Neapolitan labels left inside or with parts that a specialist can identify as Neopolitan, I would love to examine them and learn from them. To this day , I haven't seen any.
Besides, a mandola was always a secondary instrument with no solo repertoire....if you go on ebay you will see 100s of mandolins sold, and maybe 1 or 2 bowl back mandolas, hardly any from Naples . There was never a huge demand for them....Few were made.

All good questions. All I can do is refer you to my source. :-)

[Giannis Tsoulogiannis]

Also see these from 1910.No connection to mandola

[ollaimh]

well I have read that stathoupoulo started making his bouzoukia while in Smyrna. long before imigrating to the usa. there he was near the island of chios and their mandolin , mandola. and octave mandolin tradition. there are many examples in the Athenian museum of traditional instruments. the local greek guys I talked to dated the eastern agean mandolin family tradition back to the venetian occupation , so it was well established by 1850, having started in 1650ish. they thought it was these eastern Aegean instruments that influenced stathoupoulo to combine features of the mandolin with those of the sazi/taboura instruments with long necks that were then showing metal frets on occasion. the hybrid instruments first seem to occur in smryna and Constantinople. every one seemed to think these were all three course instruments. so I am not in favour of a direct Italian influence but an indirect one via chios and the eastern Aegean islands. it's possible the odd musician tried four courses but this doesn't seem to be the norm.

I have a 1911 stathoupoulo much like the one shown but with a different rosette and in worse condition. I had it repaired to be a good player and it sings. it has a warm loud sound that announces what a genius stathoupoulo was.

as to the original question, that's a pretty cheap bouzouki. however some cheapos have great sound(and some don't). I have a fifties one with mother of toilet seat face ornamentation which is still one of my favourite instruments to play. the neck has to finger board, the frets are just put into the the five piece neck. strong, un bent and with a good set up it's a beauty to play, and I am not afraid of taking it to a party ot a beach. I busked with it for years

[ollaimh]

ps I have pictures somewhere of eastern Aegean mandolins, mandolas and octave mandos from the Athens museum of traditional instruments. i'll try to find them. they are fairly distinct in design from Italian instruments but if the family. these were also occasionally played in crete at a an early period. in and around chios they have a whole musical tradition built on the mando family. mostly dance music I think.

does anyone know the name of the major luthier in Constantinople who built early bouzoukia? I have forgotten. several of his lavtas are in the Athens museum. very ornate.

[alk]

All interesting questions, I guess the first one we should ask:
what EXACTLY is bouzouki, and when does it first appear? As we can see from the second example of Giannis, above, the line between saz/tampouras and the bouzouki is not always 100% clear and I don't think people just switched to this new instrument overnight and never looked back....
That is partly the reason I find hard to accept Pennanens conclusions(i need to get hold of this study).
Bouzouki didn't "start" (centainly not in peiraus in 1914), it developed through centuries of evolution and musical changes.

Stathopoulos did study in Turkey but as far as I am aware, no surviving examples of that period exist.We can't be sure that it was bouzoukia that he was buiding there, as he was a wonderful mandolin, santouri, guitar and lute maker as well. Apparently he also made violins, although none survived.
The mandola was also used extensively by Greek players at the time, people like Skarvelis and Peristeris. This is a photo of Peristeris and his group, holding rather big mandolas,possibly octave-mandolas.No idea where these instruments were built. Possibly italian?
It certainly is possible that mandolin/mandola influences started there as influences from the west were quite strong and often fashionable.
I haven't been able to trace a mandola or a bouzouki made in Istanbul or Smyrna in the late 1800s or bit later. I wonder how strong was the local tradition of making western instruments there.

[Giannis Tsoulogiannis]

I believe that Bouzouki was mostly developed in Pelloponese.It was one the favourite instruments of the greek warriors in the revolution against Turks at 1821 as Makriyiannis states.
Maurousis although in Constandinopole made beautifull mandolins and mandolas.

[zoukboy]

A... I don't think people just switched to this new instrument overnight and never looked back....
That is partly the reason I find hard to accept Pennanens conclusions(i need to get hold of this study).
Bouzouki didn't "start" (centainly not in peiraus in 1914), it developed through centuries of evolution and musical changes.

Just to be clear, Pennanen makes no such claim. He documents the beginning of the *modern, staved back Greek bouzouki* as a hybrid mandola-bouzouki in Piraeus ca. 1914-14. Of course there were Greek bouzoukis before that date but they were made with bodies carved from a solid block of wood. There may have been one-off staved back experiments prior to that but there was a definite change to the staved back construction at that time.

[vkioulaphides]

There may be a logical gap somewhere in there. By way of disclaimer, while Greek, I am no bouzouki-connoisseur, so all of the very little that I know is second-hand, and highly dubious as such.

I believe I recall reading in an anthology of interviews with Tsitsanis that his father had "that old mandola" retrofitted with a longer neck, and thus turned to a bouzouki— Vasili's first instrument, and the one that got him so enamored of rebetika.

Even if accepted at face value, this account means only that that instrument was thus reconstructed; it is not sufficient evidence to lead to the conclusion that bouzoukis were generally built that way. Influence is one thing; ex post facto conversion is quite another one.

A fascinating inquiry— in rather murky waters, one must add, considering how many Greek luthiers had studied in Italy and/or apprenticed with Italian luthiers working in Greece at that time. Then again, Italians were probably far outnumbered by Armenian luthiers, so the plot thickens...

I look forward to learning more, as I follow this thread. My own $0.02 (or rather less) are already expended.

Cheers,

Victor

[Giannis Tsoulogiannis]

There may have been one-off staved back experiments prior to that but there was a definite change to the staved back construction at that time.

Staves were in use for centuries .Here is an example from a Ioannis Stathopoulos 1870 bouzouki

[vkioulaphides]

Gorgeous!

Amazing ornamentation... I think I discern movable frets, like on a laouto— which makes perfect sense, considering the age of this instrument.

Thanks for posting this, Gianni!

Cheers,

Victor