Looking for F-style Mandocellos

[mrmando]

Actually, I'd think triple courses start out as annoyingly impractical on a mandolin-size instrument and just get worse as you get bigger. It's hard enough to drive eight strings when they're as thick as cello strings, even using a super-thick Kevlar pick. If I wanted to drive twelve strings I'd need a whole bulletproof vest.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Eddie, did you forget the Vega?

Well the Vega is a 15" scale and is more Mandola - an Octave above a 'Cello...

[Eddie Sheehy]

A Liuto Cantablie, I'm gearing up to build one, circa a 24" scale, 5 course. What was the scale length on the one you had/played Eddie?

Walt,
Jim Garber refers to them as Liuto Cantabile - to me they're just Citterns tuned CCGGDDAAEE. The Crump was a 26" scale. Below 24" scale you're going to find it hard to get that Low C without using steel hawsers for strings...

[Jordan Mong]

The real question is whether you want an oval hole or f-holes. That's worth far more cogitation than body shape, in my opinion.

I have a vehement preference for oval holes on a mandocello. Most cheaper f-hole mandocellos I've heard in person sound like a guitar, and what's the point of that? Watch every mandocello clip on youtube you can find, and decide which one is best for you.

I much prefer the tone coming from a D or oval holes than from F-holes. The tone is much richer. I think I'd prefer a D-hole, but oval would be just fine.

[Walt Kuhlman]

Sludgehead, there are three course mandolin style instruments with roots in the Andes, Peru and Bolivia I believe.

Eddie: The customer is going with a low D rather then C, I think we will end up close to 25" anyway, (24.785 + or -). I felt the same thing low C + cable, a subject well discussed with my customer.

[Bernie Daniel]

Walt,
Jim Garber refers to them as Liuto Cantabile - to me they're just Citterns tuned CCGGDDAAEE. The Crump was a 26" scale. Below 24" scale you're going to find it hard to get that Low C without using steel hawsers for strings...

I wondering what gauge did you use for the E-course? And then how long did they go before breaking?

[Bernie Daniel]

...Eddie: The customer is going with a low D rather then C, I think we will end up close to 25" anyway, (24.785 + or -). I felt the same thing low C + cable, a subject well discussed with my customer.

This is a bit of a different direction but still with mandocellos -- what nut width do you use for your 4- and 5 course mandocellos?

[Eddie Sheehy]

On those scales Bernie a regular light guitar string works for an E. I like 1.5" for 4 course and 1.75" for 5 course... but I don't make 'em, I play 'em...

[CES]

Sludgehead,

Check with the contacts Martin gave you to look into finding one to lay your hands on. If all else fails, road trip to Nashville. Carter Vintage had a cool Rattlesnake MC in stock, at least a couple of weeks ago. Not F style, and not inexpensive, but you can get a feel for one. I bought an OM to sort of test the waters on the larger scaled mandos, and I've got about all I want to handle there, at least for now.

But I don't say that to discourage you. I think the MC is an extremely cool instrument, and maybe someday I'll spring for one. For now I'll keep working on my OM until my left pinky grows up

[Jordan Mong]

Really? The F-style is way more Art Nouveau then classical, classical would be more lute like, face/top IMHO.

That is a very interesting point, actually. To me, it just feels homely, and reminds me of the country areas of Ohio and Tennessee, while still having a small town/city look, to it.


CES: I will certainly think about checking in on those contacts. When I get the time, I will look it. I don't wish to jump into things, though, or schedule any appointment of sorts, as those locations are still quite a distance. I also have no place to try an Octave Mandolin, either, but those do seem really cool, as well. The cello appeals to me more though for it's tuning, sound, as well fitting a much more comfortable size. It just looks like such a nice, beautiful instrument. And yeah, the pink never seizes to give anyone trouble. I still think mine isn't even calloused as much as it should be.

[Bernie Daniel]

On those scales Bernie a regular light guitar string works for an E. I like 1.5" for 4 course and 1.75" for 5 course... but I don't make 'em, I play 'em...

OK that makes sense on string gauge -- it's the same note & scale length -- why wouldn't it work? Momentary brain fade I guess -- I was thinking about a 5 course mandolin with a high B set. Gee, I've got another arch top guitar down the basement....

[Bernie Daniel]

One other consideration on the mandocello body. I believe that there was a reason that Lloyd Loar decided to use the L-5 guitar body for his K-5 master model mandocello in stead of modeling it after the K-4. In my opinion part of the reason was the size of the body cavity. If you were so see a K-4 and a K-5 standing next to each other you would realize that the body cavity is on the K-5 is significantly larger. Here is a pic I took a few years ago of a 16" arch top (same size as a K-5) next to a K-1 (about the same size as a K-4) so you can get an idea from that. The guitar was later converted to a K-5 style mandocello.

[Walt Kuhlman]

Sludgehead: I do understand your sediments, but the roots of bluegrass created in the '30's don't jive with the first mandolins carved by Orville Gibson in the heart of the Art Nouveau movement. A very new design fitting for the time and movement.

[Jordan Mong]

Sludgehead: I do understand your sediments, but the roots of bluegrass created in the '30's don't jive with the first mandolins carved by Orville Gibson in the heart of the Art Nouveau movement. A very new design fitting for the time and movement.

I understand. I thought it was interesting that you pointed out the Art Nouveau look to it that I've never really noticed before.
For me, it just clicks in a way. It just gives off a classic yet country vibe. Has a sort of character to it.

[Jordan Mong]

I have to add that I just now found out that the mandocello used in this video:

is the cheapest mandocello on Weber's catalog. According to a commenter, the price of this mandocello is $3,800. I really like the sound of this instrument, and it looks great. Any thoughts?


EDIT: http://www.themandolinstore.com/scri...idCategory=100
Third one down. Listed at $3,799, which fits my price range. Any thoughts are welcome.

[Bernie Daniel]

You can't go far wrong with a Weber. The Gallatin has a more abbreviated scroll but the look is not bad at all to my eye. It has a mahogany back and sides rather than maple but that is not a problem for most.

[mrmando]

I really like the sound of this instrument, and it looks great. Any thoughts?

Well, if you're cool with F-holes all of a sudden, it'll be a great instrument to have, and it looks like The Mandolin Store expects to get one in this month.

[Jordan Mong]

Well, if you're cool with F-holes all of a sudden, it'll be a great instrument to have, and it looks like The Mandolin Store expects to get one in this month.

You can't go far wrong with a Weber. The Gallatin has a more abbreviated scroll but the look is not bad at all to my eye. It has a mahogany back and sides rather than maple but that is not a problem for most.

Thank you both, again. I think I've always been a mahogany fan, so I think I prefer the feature. It is a very lovely instrument.
I never minded the F-holes at all, though I do like the D-soundholes a bit more. I can absolutely put up with the F-holes, they look pretty nice and the sound is still quite amazing, if that video is anything to go by.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well, if you're cool with F-holes all of a sudden, it'll be a great instrument to have, and it looks like The Mandolin Store expects to get one in this month.

I noticed that -- hey they must be making f-style mandocellos after all!

[foldedpath]

Aside from the horrible sound quality in that video, that Gallatin looks nice and seems to have the "Weber tone" for these big instruments. The smaller peghead shape might actually be an advantage in the way it balances. The big Weber F-style instruments with traditional scroll pegheads are a little neck-heavy, since the body size isn't that large as a counterweight. I always use my F-style OM on a strap, for balance.

If you're leaning towards a Weber, I should mention that the Weber OM's (and I presume 'Cellos also) have fairly substantial neck profiles. The neck on my Yellowstone Traditional F OM is a fat U-shape, not the shallow arched neck some guitar players prefer. I don't know if it's structurally important or just Bruce Weber's personal preference.

It doesn't bother me at all, but I shift around to a lot of different instruments and I'm not too picky about neck profiles. A few people have posted comments here saying that they don't like the "clubby" necks on Weber OM's, so it's just something to be aware of. Especially if you're buying an instrument without trying it first.

[Jim Garber]

Stupid question, perhaps, but has anyone ever built an instrument in the mandolin family with three-string courses? I imagine that would be close to impossible on a mandolin or even mandola, but perhaps on larger family members like the octave mandolin and the mandocello, it may work.

Also, in addition to what Marty J refers to, Oscar Schmidt made truckloads of 12 string/triple strung bowlbacks at the earlier part of the 20th century. I would assume they were louder but harder to play and keep in tune. No advantage I can see for those. You can string them in octaves for an interesting tiple sound.

[Jordan Mong]

I have never played a triple-coursed instrument before, but I can't imagine them being comfortable, as even paired courses give me a bit of trouble at times.

About the neck shape, at the price, I don't think it should be much of a concern. It is a nice instrument over all, slight discomfort in the neck is something I can get used to. Narrow necks are what give me trouble.

[Marty Jacobson]

It is a nice instrument over all, slight discomfort in the neck is something I can get used to. Narrow necks are what give me trouble.

It's a mandocello... even the nicest 'cello is still a bit of a beast to play.

By the way, I think you are putting excess emphasis on the shape of the sound ports. In any instrument, absent bracing and soundboard design considerations, a circle or D shaped soundhole do pretty much exactly the same thing.

Further, a mandocello is going to sound like a mandocello, whether it's got f holes, centered circle sound hole, flat top, carved top, whatever. The variations in tone from mandocello to mandocello are more subtle than what you'd expect from smaller scale instruments.

I can usually tell very easily, blindfolded, if a mandolin being played is a flat top, arch top, f-holes, or centered sound hole. With a mandocello, it is much more difficult to tell how it was constructed. Even a ~$500 Wishnevsky mandocello made out of flat-sawn 2x12's from Home Depot with knots in it sounds like a mandocello.

If you're looking for the ultimate in tone, you probably want an archtop-guitar form factor with a centered sound hole, a nice wide lower bout and fairly long scale length (at least 25".. longer if you can handle it). But the F-style form factor can work, too, as Mike Marshall's Monteleone mandocello proves. Circumstantially, at least, as I assume Mike wouldn't be wearing it out if it weren't a good instrument. I have not heard it in person. Over YouTube, all mandocelli sound pretty much the same to me. The big exception would be a flat-top pin bridge, as in the case of the Santa Cruz mandocello, which is essentially a jumbo guitar with 4 courses and strung CGDA. That sounds more like a guitar to me (and this has been verified to me by a well-respected member of the forum here, who owned a SCGC 'cello).

Is that Gallatin 'cello really nearly $4k? Man, I need to make some 'cellos.

[Walt Kuhlman]

Hmmmmm Marty...not so sure about that...

[Bernie Daniel]

It's a mandocello... even the nicest 'cello is still a bit of a beast to play....

That is so true -- a mandocello is not just a large mandolin -- or even like you might imagine that playing a guitar with a mandolin string arrangement might be. It's a whole different world with it's own set of problems.

For starters you have an instrument tuned in 5ths that has guitar spacing between the frets this leads to a LOT more stretching to reach frets and moving the hand to other positions than on a guitar. Then you are pushing down two strings and they are not very light gauge ones either. Finally the average tension on a mandolin string is something like 22 lbs on a mandocello it is more like 35 lbs. It is a beast generally.

I...Is that Gallatin 'cello really nearly $4k? Man, I need to make some 'cellos.

Of course you should!