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Thread: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

  1. #1
    Registered User Jordan Mong's Avatar
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    Default Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    It is to my understand that these are not quite as common as the A-style mandocellos, nor are there good inexpensive models made for mandocellos like there are guitars and mandolins. I'm willing to save up some money for one in the future, but I'm not sure at what price I should expect to pay, or even where to buy them! I know I need a roughly around a thousand dollars for one, I'm not sure how much more willing I am to go, there.
    If anyone can point me to some sources where I can buy one, check one out, or even get the prices, please let me know. Thank you, in advanced.

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    There are a couple of no-frills luthiers -- Steve Wishnevsky and Mike Soares come to mind -- who have built objects that kinda sorta look like F-style mandocellos in the $600–1,000 range. It's hard to say whether these would meet your expectations. They're certainly not instruments of great refinement in quality or tone, but they might get the job done depending on your needs.

    If you want a professional-grade F-style mandocello, you can expect to lay down at least $4K.
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  4. #3
    Registered User Jordan Mong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    I've heard of Wishnevsky and Soares before while browsing around these forums. I would really like the F-style, as I've always admired the look. To be honest, I came across the mandocello while looking for a guitar in the shape of an F-style, as I am not comfortable with the size of the mandolin (albeit, I do still wish to own one someday), but decided to stick with the mandocello for its awesome size, look, sound, and the chance to learn a new, and rather unique, instrument.
    I would really like a nice tone, though. It is to my understanding that cheap mandocellos are not going to be common, as there are no "student" models nor the chance of getting one labeled as a "learners instrument" due to their being so far into the family, already. So while I do want a good sound, I don't really need a higher end sound, either. The highest I am willing to go is maybe $1,500. I know F-style anything is much more expensive than A-styles or other styles due to the complex build, and also due to that, they are much more uncommon. But $1,500 is the most I'm willing to raise up to for the instrument. I do not believe that will land me a bad model, though, say like an $80 mandolin would, if you understand the comparison.
    Thank you for your input, though. And thank you for any more of your two cents you would like to add.

    EDIT: Looks like I'm a on a tight rope with that price. I thought I saw some F-styles go under the $3k mark. At this point, I'll take anything or any information anyone can offer me. I'll just have to find more ways to make money. Thanks, again.
    Last edited by Jordan Mong; Aug-01-2013 at 1:13am.

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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    I think Morgan Monroe makes a carved top f style cello in that price range. I would highly suggest trying one out no matter what style before committing to an f style. These long scale mandolin family instruments are difficult to play and might not be your cup of tea. In short, don't just buy an instrument because it might look cool. Think of how you might use it in a practical sense.

    Good luck!

    Sean

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by Sludgehead View Post
    But $1,500 is the most I'm willing to raise up to for the instrument. I do not believe that will land me a bad model, though, say like an $80 mandolin would, if you understand the comparison.
    Certainly no established pro mandolin luthier is offering an F-style cello at that price point.

    Here's a funky-looking thing by Martin Delabano, sort of a second-tier F-style. A cut above Wishnevsky or Soares but not quite to the quality of, say, a Weber. And even this costs $3,400, although it would have to be far less ugly for me to pay that much.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgaxraFo9sg

    Nevin Fahs is another guy who's a little off the beaten path and has made some nice-looking mandocellos. But given that his Stahl copy is $2,400, I doubt he will agree to make an F-style for $1,500.
    http://redheadmandolins.com/for-sale/

    Carving the scroll on an F-style mandolin is a labor-intensive, time-consuming process that adds greatly to the price of the instrument. Carving a bigger scroll on an F-style mandocello takes even longer and costs even more. So a $1,500 F-style cello makes no economic sense. It's chimerical. It would cost much more than that to build it properly, and if you decide to build it cheaply, you'd better price it less than $1,500, because people who want cheaply made instruments won't pay that much.

    My advice would be to forget about an F-style and look for a used Weber flattop, Eastman, or Ovation. Or maybe, if you're very lucky, someone will want to sell a used Herb Taylor mandocello.
    http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/mandolin/
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by sgrexa View Post
    I think Morgan Monroe makes a carved top f style cello in that price range.
    I believe you're thinking of the MFB-100 bouzouki:
    http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/MFB100.htm

    At 25.5" it's long enough for cello tuning, but it would be a mighty struggle to slot the 1-3/16" nut for eight cello strings! I think it's been discontinued.

    I have a Morgan Monroe "F bass," which is, I think, built on the same body as the bouzouki. The bass is certainly no tone monster. The body's really too small to resonate at those low frequencies. It looks cool, though.
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    Registered User Jordan Mong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Thank you both, again. I am aware of Martin Delabano, and I must say, that video was one of the first to make me want one of these. It looks like an awesome instrument, but to each their own, I suppose. I just thought and looked further into it, and $1,500 seemed off, hence the edit. However, I do believe I have seen some sold at that price, though the key word is sold. I believe I will be fine with the feel of the instrument, or it may take some getting used to. I've handled my share of guitars, 12-strings, mandolins, and basses. I think the fingering would give me some trouble. I know what specs would feel best, as well, if I am going by the feel of a guitar. I hope I am not sounding foolish, at all, as I am quite passionate to studying these instruments (I know more about them than I know how to play them), but the mandocello is just being introduced to me, and I love the sound and look of them.

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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Well Martin, certainly the terms bouzouki, mandocello, octave mandolin and even octave mandola have been used to describe essentially the same instrument in this forum and elsewhere to confuse just about anyone. I sort of have my own definition that I use for each developed over years of observation of players and instruments here in the US and globally. Going on memory alone and after only looking at the Morgan Monroe in a couple classified ads I lumped it in the mandocello category and the only candidate that came to mind as something the OP might want to investigate. Having never played one and looking at the specs the nut width is oddly small. Personally, I find the simple six string guitar infinately more versatile and easier to play in both standard and the many, many alternate tunings out there. That said, I would still certainly give the MM bouzcello a go if one ever happened to appear and offered the opportunity.

    Sean

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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    BTW, I had to post this somewhere, and this seems like it should be OK:

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/67989

    Sellers name is Olav Loef?? Come on!?

    Sean

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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Also, I was wondering, why wouldn't someone make a 25" scale guitar (or whatever?) shaped instrument with removable nut and bridge inserts? If it had 8 tuners, one nut / bridge insert could be set up for mandocello and the other set for guitar? Probably something to do with the scale and fret positioning that I am too brain dead to figure out.

    Sean

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Sean, I never thought of it, but I don't see why that wouldn't be possible. It would probably be prudent to calculate total string tension set up both ways, and if the difference is not too extreme, it could probably be done. Don't expect to walk into a music store and find something like that though. That's the realm of custom builders and I'm sure there are many willing to talk to you about such a project (at the right price).

    To the OP, I think the reality of the amount of work involved in making scroll-bearing ("F-style") mandocellos by nearly any work force in any place is going to make it hard to find such things at $1500. I hope I don't sound too harsh in saying I think a "reality check" may be in order.

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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    as others have rightly stated here finding a good quality F style mandocello for $1500 is going to be difficult
    I think even 3K might be a bit short

    so my advice - I have not owned an F style mandocello but have owned a flat top Freshwater ( out of business - but there is probably a lot of used stuff floating around)and currently have a previously owned ovation mandocello ( in truth it is an 8 string low range guitar- the neck is standard guitar) but it has built in pickup and is a good quality instrument
    the strings are ball end ( fixed bridge like a flatop guitar) so you have to make up string sets as the loop ends from D'addario or others won't work.

    both were under 1 k and are good instruments to learn on
    so before you go spending 5K on something that might not be right for you- I would recommend looking at lower price cellos - Weber , Gypsy, make some very affordable models - but not in F style - Weber does make F style but they are generally over 3K
    you may be able to do financing from the mandolin store -they might be your best bet.
    the Gibson A style mandocellos are sometimes under 3K and are usually very nice instruments- again they can be somewhat rare.

    as for fingering - the standard gauge on the low C course is 072 which is a bear
    I have dropped my ovation down to 062 and it works pretty well
    I will say mandocello is somewhat obscure - so there is not a lot of educational material out there - you are kind of on your own for study - you can borrow techniques form mandolin and mandola as well as guitar and bowed cello

    if you want something closer to a guitar- octave mandolin would be the way to go and the A models or even flatops from many makers are very affordable

    I will say I was pretty far into mandocello for a while - playing and writing a lot on it
    but I have strayed back to octave and mandola - octave being the beast I ride most these days

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by sgrexa View Post
    Well Martin, certainly the terms bouzouki, mandocello, octave mandolin and even octave mandola have been used to describe essentially the same instrument in this forum and elsewhere to confuse just about anyone.
    I don't think mandocello belongs on that list. The term denotes a specific tuning that differs from any of the common tunings used for the other three.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    It sounds to me like you're attracted to the visual aesthetics and the low tone in general, not specifically looking for an instrument tuned CGDA for playing things like the Bach Cello suites?

    If that's the case, then I'd recommend octave mandolin instead. The fingering will be much easier, for one thing. I've played guitar for 30+ years before getting into mandolin and octave mandolin, and my 22.5" scale OM still feels like a finger-buster at times, especially with chord shapes. Notice how much the player's hand is shifting around to reach notes in that clip of the Delabano instrument. You can't just compare scale lengths, and think a 25.5" scale mandocello will be playable like a guitar. The tuning in 5ths makes it a completely different ball game.

    An F-style Octave mandolin is still a rare bird, but at least they're a little more common than F-style mandocellos. They show up every once in a while on the used market. I bought my Yellowstone F-style Weber OM on Ebay, snatching it up as a "Buy it Now" when I found it selling for half the cost of a new one. The scroll is shown in my avatar at left, behind my Lebeda mandolin to get an idea of the size difference.

    You're still going to be paying a lot more than your current budget for a quality instrument though, even used. I bought my Yellowstone OM used for $3,000 USD, and the new ones at the time were selling for $6,000. So you can save money buying used, but you'd better have some funds saved up to grab something like this quickly if you see it. There are independent luthiers making F-style OM's, but anything I'd personally recommend is going to cost at least up into that $3k range or higher.

    The reason I was comfortable buying a Weber OM used, was that they're the only small-shop builder who has been making instruments like this in any real quantity, and they've been doing it for years. They've got it nailed for that particular style and tone, if that's what you're going for. So I think a Weber is the best bet for either a new or used instrument in this style, unless there is an independent luthier you've worked with before, or whose work you especially want to support. For a taste of the Weber F-style OM tone, here's a promo video featuring Sierra Hull. Start saving your money.



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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Well, not an F-model mandocello, but one other possibility for the OP of anyone looking for a MC on a budget who has some luthier chops would be to convert an archtop guitar to an MC. I believe that Bernie Daniel has done that a few times with excellent results.
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    I believe you're thinking of the MFB-100 bouzouki:
    http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/MFB100.htm

    At 25.5" it's long enough for cello tuning, but it would be a mighty struggle to slot the 1-3/16" nut for eight cello strings! I think it's been discontinued.

    I have a Morgan Monroe "F bass," which is, I think, built on the same body as the bouzouki. The bass is certainly no tone monster. The body's really too small to resonate at those low frequencies. It looks cool, though.
    Martin might be right -- but I have a neuron flashing somewhere in my head that is telling me that indeed MM did make an F-style mandocello for a while. It may have been some 5 -8 years since I recall seeing one for sale though. But the price was not bad at all and it looked to be of quality equal to their mandolins at the time -- i.e., acceptable imports.

    I also have watched Martin Delabano's videos and did communicated with him briefly once I believe. I recall he told me that he made his K-5 style - f-hole mandocello by scaling up the plans for an F-5 mandolin on a photocopier! My apologies if I have that wrong -- but he did scale up plans. He also made his own version of an H-5.

    Personally I did not find them to be objectionable instruments. The mandocello box looks huge -- probably somewhat larger than a real K-4 with f-holes. But I think it is quite a feat to make something like that especially if not formally trained I would think?I think they are pretty cool considering he is not a luthier.

    I believe his day-job is a music director at a high school.

    As to the OP quest -- if he decides he can live without a F-style, there will probably be a couple of K-5 style mandocellos that were made by converting vintage arch top guitars for sale in a few months. They'll probably be near his price range.
    Last edited by Bernie Daniel; Aug-01-2013 at 6:48pm.
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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    ...Notice how much the player's hand is shifting around to reach notes in that clip of the Delabano instrument. You can't just compare scale lengths, and think a 25.5" scale mandocello will be playable like a guitar. The tuning in 5ths makes it a completely different ball game....
    This is SO true! In addition the sound output of a mandocello is so different from a guitar --more abrupt, more dissonant sounding with much faster decay. I got interested in mandocellos years ago because I thought, well now I know something about the mandolin fingering why not get a BIG mandolin what you can sing along with like a guitar? It is possible to do but a mandocello does not have the sweet effortless sustain of a guitar. It's just a totally different beast altogether sound-wise.
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    Registered User Jordan Mong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Allow me to clarify some, here. I fully understand the Guitar and Mandocello are two very different animals. However, it was more of a size and feel comfort, not sound. I do wish to play cello pieces on one, and I find them just as lovely sounding as they look. And, also, I am fully aware the original price was not going to happen. I realized this on my second comment on the thread.
    I have considered the Octave Mandola, however, again, I feel a lot more comfortable with a Mandocello. I'm alright with a higher price range, at this point. I would just like some information on prices I can expect for one that plays well. I've seen some listed around the $3k and $4k mark. I never really liked the A-style too much, and would much over prefer the F-style. I am quite attached to the instrument, and would like more information.
    Unfortunately, I live in Charleston South Carolina, and the amount of music stores here are narrowed down to Pawn Shops and Guitar Centers. I do not have a chance to get my hands on anything beyond that of a mandolin or mandola, as far as that family goes. There aren't any family or luthier owned businesses here, that I know of. I would love to get a chance to try a mandocello out, but am unavailable to. The best I can go by are the specs I am comfortable with.

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    If you can bring yourself to let go of the scroll fixation, I bet you can get yourself a really nice mandocello for $3K. Walt Kuhlman, Nevin Fahs, Herb Taylor, Weber and others will have non-F cellos in that range.

    If you can go west to Georgia and visit Randy Wood, or north to N.C. and visit Tony Williamson, I bet you can at least try out a mandocello or two.
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    Registered User Jordan Mong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    It really is just an over all preference to have that F-style. I am almost positive I have seen good F-models around that price range, but it may take some looking around, after all. I hate to sound overly demanding or ignorant to these instruments, though.
    Georgia is not very far from me, actually. That is maybe a two and a half hour drive from where I live. I will have to check it out, soon.
    If there is any other information anyone can give me, that would be nice. But another thing I wish to point out, though, is that you seem to be offering luthiers or custom builds. Are there any places I can check out that do have them premade or resold, other than the classifieds here?

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    Market Man Barry Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Being a guitar player that is a newbie mando guy compared to those on the site here have steered me much the way you are being steered. I have 3 mandos, mandolla and an octave mandolin (and I built one myself)...

    I find the OM even a stretch for the fingers and has made me rethink mandocello somewhat. I played bass many years doing rush and stuff too.

    you could send Don Kawalek an email. He was going to put together a mandocello kit, like his mandos and OM's... it is reasonable but you won't get an F. consider yourself lucky, costs up here are even higher.
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by Sludgehead View Post
    Are there any places I can check out that do have them premade or resold, other than the classifieds here?
    The Mandolin Store, possibly. The bigger vintage dealers (Gruhn, Elderly, Mandolin Bros, Retrofret, a few others) will have old Gibsons now and then. None of them are really close to SC. You might try calling John's Music in Hilton Head Island:
    http://www.johnsmusichhi.com/

    John is a mandolin player and Cafe member; if anybody knows the whereabouts of a mandocello in South Carolina, it would be him.

    I mention Randy Wood because there's a particular 2-point mandocello he's been trying to sell for a long time, so maybe he won't mind someone coming over and playing it. You'd have to ask him, though.

    I do recommend finding a way to play one or more mandocellos before plunking down an amount like $3K.
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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    It's definitely not an F style and moreover I'm not sure if you'd ever go for a bowlback,
    but you can be there for around 1k if you bought a Leone Model 618 MN
    Or if you want a bit of scroll you could have it in the headstock for around 2k in the Leone Model 618 MBs

    These aren't top end instruments, but you'd be up there with that cello sound.
    You'd need to see what the story is with availability or import taxes coming from Italy.
    Eoin



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  26. #24
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Martin might be right -- but I have a neuron flashing somewhere in my head that is telling me that indeed MM did make an F-style mandocello for a while.
    I get bupkus when I Google it. Let me know if you find any evidence.
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  27. #25
    Registered User Jordan Mong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for F-style Mandocellos

    Awesome, thank you for the information mrmando. I do wish to get a feel for one, first. 2-points do look quite nice, as well.
    Beanzy, thank you as well for your input. Please do not feel like I am insulting the instruments, but bowlback doesn't seem quite like me. Those instruments look very nice, especially the Model 618 MBs, the detail on the top of the instrument is very cool.

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