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Thread: Thile Bach CD has Landed

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    Effortless playing chops, true... but short on mental effort, IMO. I really don't find the way he performs this to be inspiring.

    (BTW, I love how it's captioned on YouTube: "Singer-songwriter and mandolinist Chris Thile performs a song for the PBS NewsHour." LOL)

    Anyway, I don't say this to be contrarian, but no matter the tempo, the pulse of this Presto movement should always be felt as 3 beats of 2 notes in each measure, as opposed to 2 beats of 3 notes. Stressing the 4th notes instead of the 3rd and 5th notes obscures the internal syncopated magic rhythm of the piece. (Listen to someone play it as written, and the difference is really striking!) You can hardly tell that Bach actually wrote the time signature as 3/8 from listening to Thile's rendition, except for a few too-short bits here and there, where I guess he finds it convenient to play it as written for a while, before lapsing back into the Irish jig sounding mode again. I really wish someone would point this out to him... (not me, as I don't play well enough for him to take my advice seriously... but someone should!)

    Don't get me wrong, some violinists do this too, and I think the same thing when they do as well. It's lazy, because it's taking the "path of least resistance" with the notes.

    bratsche
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  2. #52
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed


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  4. #53
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Nice video!

  5. #54

    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post

    Anyway, I don't say this to be contrarian, but no matter the tempo, the pulse of this Presto movement should always be felt as 3 beats of 2 notes in each measure, as opposed to 2 beats of 3 notes. Stressing the 4th notes instead of the 3rd and 5th notes obscures the internal syncopated magic rhythm of the piece.
    I do find it sort of implausible that a musician of Chris's calibre isn't well aware of this, but has decided to do it this way because he wants to. No way to know without asking him.

  6. #55

    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    I'm coming from the other POV, I know the work of Joe Brent, Avi Avital, Caterina Lichtenberg, Chris Acquavella, Mike Marshall... but I don't have anything of Thile's... maybe I'll get this...

  7. #56
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    [/QUOTE]Don't get me wrong, some violinists do this too, and I think the same thing when they do as well. It's lazy, because it's taking the "path of least resistance" with the notes.

    bratsche[/QUOTE]

    Say what you will about his interpretation, I really don't think you can claim this is laziness. It wouldn't be harder for someone of Thile's ability to play it as 3 groups of two, he is a very strong player metrically and rhythmically, so it is highly unlikely he did this out of laziness.Whether you like it or not, he is doing this on purpose. Thile is a musician well beyond not knowing what 3/8 time is and how it works; if he didn't emphasize 3 groups of two sixteenths notes throughout it wasn't because no one has "pointed it out" to him. I don't know why he chose to play it as he did, and neither do you. Opinions are fine, but you are really trying hard to make the subjective objective with the language you use. It will not make me enjoy the recording any less, it's just a little annoying coming to a thread expressing enjoyment of an anticipated recording to read past comments that are trying to prove that the recording is "lazy". I don't understand why that is necessary.

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  9. #57

    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Flynn I agree with you. Didn't Edgar Meyer produce this? Pretty sure that between the two of them they know how to read music...this comes down to how a musician chooses to play the piece. No one has to love it, but let's at least acknowledge the rigor that goes into it, and the fact that a highly established classical musician (among other things) produced this album.

  10. #58

    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    There's a scene in "Sideways" where the Paul Giamatti character is dissecting the mainstream wine he just drank, it's strengths and weaknesses, while his friend just chugs a glass and says 'It tastes good to me".

    When it comes to Chris Thile playing anything on the mandolin, I'm that guy.

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  12. #59
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Just curious about this -- but watching the PBS video I was stuck by the fact that Chris holds his pick between his thumb and the side of his curled index finger and almost all of his action comes from his wrist. In many videos of classical mandolin players I see them holding the pick more "dainty" with the end of the thumb and tip of the index finger. So it seems to me Chris holds the pick more like a bluegrass player than a classical mandolinist. Is that a valid observation?
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    In any case, can you name any other mandolin player who plays Bach as well or better than Chris?
    John A. Karsemeyer

  14. #61

    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Joe Brent, Avi Avital, Caterina Lichtenberg, Mike Marshall, Chris Acquavella... you're asking for opinions, right? All I know about Chris Thile's Bach is from the above clips... What do you base your experience of Chris - and the others - on?

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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Okay, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers... and I certainly didn't imagine that the word "lazy" could cause such, especially when I explained that I meant he took the "path of least resistance" with the notes - which, themselves, are often in patterns which suggest "two groups of three", but which to my ear, at least, hearing them maintained as three groups of two within the context of that makes for a far more interesting, complex and rich musical experience.

    Different tastes, and whatnot... I just kind of prefer 3/8 to sound like 3/8, and let the notes within that framework fall where they do, by the genius writing of Bach. To me, hearing this movement done like an Irish jig (not meant as a pejorative term, either - feel free to substitute "triplets within a duple meter") lessens its overall potential. (Notice, I said "to me." Yes, it's subjective, as is the opinion of anyone - so there's no need for me or anyone to get defensive about one's own particular subjectivities.) And as I said, I know there are others who play the piece that way, too.

    I do get the impression, though, that for some people, criticizing a performance of one's musical idol at all is somehow crossing a line, and some people don't even want to acknowledge, let alone read, any opinions on the matter that differ by very much from their own. Obviously, I disagree with that. I'm not trying to make anyone enjoy anything less than they do, any more than someone posting here can cause me to like something any more, or dislike something less, than I already do. So 'nuff said about that.

    To emitfo: For examples about what I was trying to communicate, there's always Heifetz for the quintessential Bach violin playing. But this electric bassist and even this marimba player
    nicely demonstrate the way the composition sounds when the 3/8 is consistently emphasized.

    bratsche
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    In any case, can you name any other mandolin player who plays Bach as well or better than Chris?
    John if that was a reply to my post (#59) we are not on the same wavelength. My comment was based on an observation of how he held his pick and I have no idea how the world of classical mandolin players rates Chris on Bach. And it is not something I even wonder about.
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    Okay, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers... and I certainly didn't imagine that the word "lazy" could cause such, especially when I explained that I meant he took the "path of least resistance" with the notes - which, themselves, are often in patterns which suggest "two groups of three", but which to my ear, at least, hearing them maintained as three groups of two within the context of that makes for a far more interesting, complex and rich musical experience.

    Different tastes, and whatnot... I just kind of prefer 3/8 to sound like 3/8, and let the notes within that framework fall where they do, by the genius writing of Bach. To me, hearing this movement done like an Irish jig (not meant as a pejorative term, either - feel free to substitute "triplets within a duple meter") lessens its overall potential. (Notice, I said "to me." Yes, it's subjective, as is the opinion of anyone - so there's no need for me or anyone to get defensive about one's own particular subjectivities.) And as I said, I know there are others who play the piece that way, too.

    I do get the impression, though, that for some people, criticizing a performance of one's musical idol at all is somehow crossing a line, and some people don't even want to acknowledge, let alone read, any opinions on the matter that differ by very much from their own. Obviously, I disagree with that. I'm not trying to make anyone enjoy anything less than they do, any more than someone posting here can cause me to like something any more, or dislike something less, than I already do. So 'nuff said about that.

    To emitfo: For examples about what I was trying to communicate, there's always Heifetz for the quintessential Bach violin playing. But this electric bassist and even this marimba player
    nicely demonstrate the way the composition sounds when the 3/8 is consistently emphasized.

    bratsche
    That bass player is not of this earth! Is he a well known musician?
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  19. #65
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    No idea, Bernie - I just found his video an hour ago while looking for performances on YouTube. Never saw him before.

    If he can do that on that big thing, I should be able to play it on my little ol' mandola. Right?

    bratsche
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Bratsche, I have nothing against critical analysis of a musical performance. Your second statement of your feelings on the matter is much more subjective and respectful toward the musician. It would be perfectly fine to me to point out that you prefer 3 groups of 2 to be emphasized and that you feel it leads to a richer musical experience. But you went a few steps further in making guesses as to why Thile would play it the way he does that were disparaging toward his musicianship beyond the recording: that he probably chose the interpretation because he either doesn't realize or understand that he is not playing 3/8 correctly, or that he is playing it that way because he was incapable or too lazy to emphasize 3 groups of 2 at the level of the 16ths. As someone who has listened to all Thile has done and seen him live many times, suggesting these disparaging explanations without a working knowledge of Thile as a musician is ill-tempered, and doing so with a working knowledge of Thile as a musician is simply inaccurate. Having those thoughts and opinions is one thing, but advocating them to others is unnecessarily divisive in my opinion (and yes, this may be hypocritically divisive). To start a post with "I don't mean to be contrary" is probably a good indication of that.

    I'm done now. I do agree with you that at the beginning he emphasizes groups of three, but I think the internal phrases that Bach has written in at the very least prevent Thile's interpretation from sounding like duple meter, and in my ears I waver between hearing 6/8 and 3/8, if I am trying to imagine I didn't know it was in 3/8 already.

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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    In any case, can you name any other mandolin player who plays Bach as well or better than Chris?
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    I know this piece pretty well, I've played it (badly) myself, and I've listened to a number of different recordings, including the above linked ones. Honestly, I don't hear a huge difference in the way Thile is doing it. I hear groups of three where there's clearly meant to be groups of three, and groups of two where there are clearly meant to be groups of two. Maybe I'm just hearing what I expect to hear, but I really don't think there's a huge difference in terms of 3 vs 2 between Chris or any of the "proper" performances.

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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    I listened to the Presto and find it to be 3/8 mostly, with Thile occasionally letting a hemiola 3/16 happen. I would prefer if he was a trace slower and a little more deliberate about showing the rhythm but it is very smooth. I mostly like his tone.

    As to interpretation I always prefer my own, but with someone else's technique.
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Well, this thread is 69+ posts long (already) and the basic tone is fairly civil. Something inside me thinks that won't be lasting another 69 posts. Soon enough the classical wonks/wanks (besides bratsche) will weigh in tut-tutting because somebody who sings about 'Rye Whisky' is stepping into their hallowed territory without paying the necessary dues (and not playing on an Embergher or a custom bowl back.) "Not that there's anything wrong with that"...but his playing is just, well, not quite right: "Harumph. I'm not trying to spoil this for anyone. Honest. My ability to critique this playing is, well, really a reflection of my own self importance, I mean self esteem. I've been playing classical music for ____ years!"

    And the Thile-o-philes are ready to defend their man for having the huevos to tackle the Bach-man Partit Overdrive. And on a Gibson, no less! (Which is, of course, what Mr. Lloyd probably had in mind anyhow.) So the Bach is smokin'!

    Let's all remember how polite we were when our good friend Carlo Aonzo wanted to swing. (The existential inverse of this conversation. I know Carlo loves Tiny and Homer, but.....)

    This conversation, I fear, will get worse before it gets better. I want to hear the Loar so will probably score this in some fashion. Kudos for the graphic design on the CD package.

    Play nicely, y'all.

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  27. #71

    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Well, I'm loving this CD. I used to listen to the violin version quite a bit, but, I don't know what's wrong with me, I prefer Chris's mandolin version to that

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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    In any case, can you name any other mandolin player who plays Bach as well or better than Chris?
    Yes. Many.

    I don't know about better, (what does better mean in this context), but as good, as virtuoso, and to some perhaps more pleasing.
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    I think it is brilliant, and effective in its own way. I like the tone of that Loar. I will be getting a copy.

    I would love a companion CD on how Chris practiced, how he broke it down, whether he sought input from any Bach scholars in making his aesthetic choices and interpretation, whether he talked with any others who have recorded Bach on the mandolin.
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    but short on mental effort, IMO.


    bratsche
    It's this phrase here which I find a bit hard to credit. You may not like his interpretation much, but it does look to me like he knows what he's doing and has thought about it.
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    Default Re: Thile Bach CD has Landed

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    Okay, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers... and I certainly didn't imagine that the word "lazy" could cause such, especially when I explained that I meant he took the "path of least resistance" with the notes - which, themselves, are often in patterns which suggest "two groups of three", but which to my ear, at least, hearing them maintained as three groups of two within the context of that makes for a far more interesting, complex and rich musical experience.

    Different tastes, and whatnot... I just kind of prefer 3/8 to sound like 3/8, and let the notes within that framework fall where they do, by the genius writing of Bach. To me, hearing this movement done like an Irish jig (not meant as a pejorative term, either - feel free to substitute "triplets within a duple meter") lessens its overall potential. (Notice, I said "to me." Yes, it's subjective, as is the opinion of anyone - so there's no need for me or anyone to get defensive about one's own particular subjectivities.) And as I said, I know there are others who play the piece that way, too.

    I do get the impression, though, that for some people, criticizing a performance of one's musical idol at all is somehow crossing a line, and some people don't even want to acknowledge, let alone read, any opinions on the matter that differ by very much from their own. Obviously, I disagree with that. I'm not trying to make anyone enjoy anything less than they do, any more than someone posting here can cause me to like something any more, or dislike something less, than I already do. So 'nuff said about that.

    To emitfo: For examples about what I was trying to communicate, there's always Heifetz for the quintessential Bach violin playing. But this electric bassist and even this marimba player
    nicely demonstrate the way the composition sounds when the 3/8 is consistently emphasized.

    bratsche
    Thank-you sir. I don't have the Thile recording yet--it should be hear this friday--so I'll have to listen more intently but upon initial impression the Heifitz interpretation sounds better to my ear also but I also understand why a player who was weened on bluegrass and affiliated Irish tunes would hear it with a more Irish jig bent. I'm familiar with the Brandenburg Concertos & The Art of Fugue but have only been exposed to bits & pieces of his sonatas & such. I look forward to learning more.

    When critiquing something/someone it is easy for people to focus upon that aspect of what you've written that contains a negative assessment of the person involved instead of the main thrust of your point so it is best, for the sake of communicating your idea in a manner in which people will accept it (which is not necessarily the same as agreeing), to choose carefully the various attributions you might make as to the causes.

    I did not take it that way but I can understand others landing on that as the "point" of your writing. I've made the same..."mistake" before and I was puzzled by the response(s) initially also.
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