Why Do Festivals Hire The Wrong Sound Guys?

[almeriastrings]

If the space has microphones that are superior take advantage of them, don't insist your $300 shure is better than a $2000 neumann. Unless it is a purely aesthetic choice. .

I would not necessarily agree with that at all. Here's why.

First, performers often get very used to a specific microphone - particularly its pickup pattern and its proximity effect. They know how to "work" those characteristics to achieve a particular result on a particular instrument. It becomes as much a part of their performing choices (and preferred sound) as their string or pick choice. This is of course why many artists have very specific riders issued to venues concerning what should be available, or indeed, bring their own mics. Insisting that someone who has a lot of experience with, say, a SM81 or even KM140 should instead just go out there and use a totally different mic that the may never have used previously is simply creating problems where they don't exist. For what? Some theoretical "advantage" on paper that no-one is even going to hear? What it can do is ruin the performance and create uncertainty and unfamiliarity for the artist at the worst possible time. On stage, live. Obviously, if someone wants to use a $20 'Karaoke' mic, then there is some merit in that approach, but who knows, that might even be part of their unique sound? I have heard (and seen) weirder things. Generally, though, experienced performers who specify particular mics do so for a reason. I respect their choices as far as that goes. I would not tell them they "should" be using a Neumann when they are clearly familiar and happy with say, an AT, a Shure or Beyer, and if they're using a Neumann, I'm not going to tell them they'll get "better" results from a Shoeps... they're usually best (and happiest) with what they are used to. If I'm running the sound, it's my job to work with that.

[Timbofood]

My band has worked with both ends of the spectrum as far as sound men are concerned. There is an art fair here which we had played for over twenty years and had worked with the same sound man for more than half of that time, he took a little while for him to get "our sound" dialed in, by the third year, he had it dead on tuned in! We always looked forward to that gig because John knew what WE wanted to sound like. Sad to say the powers behind the show changed and now they are giving "good exposure" to less experienced and, consequently, cheaper performers. Along with that they are using a less experienced sound guy. The artists that I know who do the show have complained about both but, it has not made a difference.
Sound guys who understand are so much fun to work with, I used the " Could I get a little more talent" bit on a show we did and the monitor guy started to reach for a slide then stopped, turned to look at me and almost fell over laughing! It was over a hundred degrees onstage, the sound guys were tough as nails! The good ones are great, the not so good ones are everywhere!

[mandolino maximus]

I stand near the sound tent at a public bluegrass festival where the sound man is cheap and tends not to notice if you can't hear the banjo and the bass. A problem most of the time, but it was evident during one sound check that the Josh Williams Band was willing to do the sound check indefinitely until they got a response and the right response. The sound for that one band made that guy look great. Then the next headliner played. Oh, well. They're pretty much renting the PA and its up to the bands to figure out how to make use of the guy. This year, the Boxcars sent two of their band members back to work with him with good results.

[jaycat]

I haven't worked my way thru this entire thread, but, if no one has already, I'd like to put in a good word for the sound guys at the Lowell Folk Festival, which I attended last weekend.

You have diverse acts playing 45-50 min. sets with a 10-15 min. break for the crew to get the next act set. At Boardinghouse Park we saw a gypsy string band, a fado singer, and a country swing band in succession, with consistently good sound quality across the board.

[Bertram Henze]

This whole tangle is one of the reasons I stopped playing larger venues altogether; if the sound engineers don't go south on you, the equipment will. A simple acoustic combo and one microphone is the maximum I haul along these days.

[Rodney Riley]

Our local performance center had a group one time that insisted their sound man ran sound for them. When they were done the house subs were blown. And you knowit wasn't his fault.

[Timmando]

An earlier post mentioned the use of this on stage http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SA220. We have learned our lesson from doing benefit gigs here where the sound is provided by a rock and roll soundman. I don't want to mention specific names but the company appropriately has the word "Chaos" in it, and they always get the free benefit gigs. We were the 4th band last benefit and again it was terrible. They put our stand up bass thru a sub-woofer that rumbled the stage, they could not get my guitar adjusted with a just a mic, so I plugged in a pickup and gave them a wire, my guitar was then on full, just like a rock and roll guitar. Our lead vocal mic was on in the monitor, but off in the mains for half of our first song. I could go on with all the problems we had but you get the idea. Our solution was to use our SA220 whenever we do a benefit. I run a 12 input mixer to the mic input on the SA220 and mix it so we sound right on stage, it is our monitor. Then I plug in a wire to the post-mix line level out of the back of the SA220 and hand the soundman on the main board just one wire...all pre-mixed. All he has to do is plug it in to one channel and increase or decrease the volume to go thru his mains. This works fantastic and will solve all your sound problems with a chaotic sound man.

[foldedpath]

Our solution was to use our SA220 whenever we do a benefit. I run a 12 input mixer to the mic input on the SA220 and mix it so we sound right on stage, it is our monitor. Then I plug in a wire to the post-mix line level out of the back of the SA220 and hand the soundman on the main board just one wire...all pre-mixed. All he has to do is plug it in to one channel and increase or decrease the volume to go thru his mains. This works fantastic and will solve all your sound problems with a chaotic sound man.

Yep, sometimes that's the only choice, although it might require some "creative negotiation" with the house engineer.

I've sub-mixed our group a few times in the past, usually at a local folk club where they have an installed PA but no regular (or reliable) sound person to run it. Our compact mixer on stage, connected to an input on the house snake does the job. And we don't have to schlep our own speakers and monitors.

Note: You may already know this, but for the sake of others who may not -- it's a good idea to use a passive DI or an "iso box" to transformer-isolate your mixer output from the house mixer. It can solve all sorts of potential problems, from ground loop hum (due to being on separate AC circuits) to inadvertent phantom power hitting your mixer (not good), to just wonky wiring and stray currents on the house mixer.

Radial makes a good (but expensive) Twin-Iso box, and I think any passive transformer DI will also work. It won't affect your sound at all, and might prevent problems down the road.

[Darren Bailey]

Funniest comment I ever heard on this theme was from Jim James when he appeared on Leno = he acknowledged the half million dollars worth of sound equipment the TV studio had invested in and laughed at the fact that most of the bands were coming on and plugging into twenty dollar pedals before the sound reached the big system.

[Timmando]

"plugging into twenty dollar pedals" that is pretty funny...I guess they have to have some kind of distortion to cover their lack of tone, taste and musicianship! ROCK ON!

[Jim]

Then I plug in a wire to the post-mix line level out of the back of the SA220 and hand the soundman on the main board just one wire...all pre-mixed. All he has to do is plug it in to one channel and increase or decrease the volume to go thru his mains.

This is what Harvey Reid did when he came to our club. No complaints from me, easy night for me and sounded great.

[Cheryl Watson]

It's common for small festivals/venues hire a terrible soundman with a lousy sound system because they are cheap. Some venues have a game plan to have a great sound system but run out of money when it is halfway (or less than halfway) completed. When my band, on rare occasion, actually got to work with a competent soundman who could get the most out of his awesome sound system, I would get giddy and euphoric

Festivals and clubs run on a budget and many places only pay the national touring acts and expect the regional bands to play for free (hey, it's a chance to play and be on stage!!!) and go in the hole for gas, strings, and sometimes, food is not even provided.

A cheap sound crew and system often ticks off the national bands so much that they refuse to come back and what happens is that people start spreading the word that the festival is terrible and it loses support. It takes a lot of smarts and experience to allocate the money where it works best and grow a venue or festival.

[llg]

Good points by all. I do believe that if a festival of any size wants to do well and increase it's reputation, some of the best money spent will be in providing a good sound system with someone that knows how to run it. A bad sound guy, set up, whatever can ruin a great band and a good sound man can make a good band sound nice and clear. Can't make a good band great but can definitely make it worse.

I do think it should be emphasized that if your band never practices with PA equipment you can't be ready for the stage properly. A good band with little stage experience will still sound good with a great sound guy tweaking everything. BUT since we've established that most venues won't have great sound reinforcement, then a band should practice as much as possible with sound equipment to learn how it sounds and feels. Standing in a little circle is one of the things that makes a BG jam so special but unless you use one condenser mic that won't happen on stage. SO learn to stand in a straight line and learn to play when you can't hear each other as well as you'd like. Then maybe you'lll learn to get closer to the mic when you sing or play solos, and learn to step away some when the other bandmates play their solos. I guarantee this will make you a better sounding band no matter who is running the board. (By the way I hate that they always have stages set up in a straight line. It's far better to have a little arc for better visibility between bandmates but that's another issue as well.)

[Dagger Gordon]

(By the way I hate that they always have stages set up in a straight line. It's far better to have a little arc for better visibility between bandmates but that's another issue as well.)

It might be another issue, but it is an important point. Seeing each other easily is completely crucial.

[almeriastrings]

Radial makes a good (but expensive) Twin-Iso box, and I think any passive transformer DI will also work. It won't affect your sound at all, and might prevent problems down the road.

The Radial is a fine little box. Built like a tank. Then, at over $250, it should be

The Palmer PL-02 is another very heavy duty box in the +$200 range.

The ART DTI does a very good job in exactly the same role for around $50. I've used both and while the Radial is much heavier construction, I could hear no difference at all, so ended up with the DTI. If I was worried about 300 pound roadies jumping up and down on stuff, I'd say the Palmer/Radial boxes are bomb-proof enough to take years of such abuse and survive, but I tend to look after my gear, and $200 buys a lot of string changes.

[allenhopkins]

...(By the way I hate that they always have stages set up in a straight line. It's far better to have a little arc for better visibility between bandmates but that's another issue as well.)

I just pick up the two center mics and move them back. A good venue will ask each band for a stage diagram as part of their request for sound requirements. A less-good venue -- well, you're the ones playing, you can move things around, let 'em deal with it...

[JeffD]

The sound at Clifftop this year was awesome. It was commented by more than a few.

[Terry Allan Hall]

A local venue has a house PA with a big sub woofer, that in a brick & glass room makes for completely uninteligable vocals and music that just rumbles. Club owner doesn't get that there is a problem even though you can't understand a person talking into a mic with no music , let alone singing. Sub woofers are really not necessary particularly in acoustic music.

Subs are handy when the bass (acoustic or electric) is plugged directly into the PA, but it sounds like that one needs to be turned down quite a bit.

For acoustic music, the sub in my PA is run just loud enough that you tend to notice it only when it's turned off.

[Andy Alexander]

I just pick up the two center mics and move them back. A good venue will ask each band for a stage diagram as part of their request for sound requirements. A less-good venue -- well, you're the ones playing, you can move things around, let 'em deal with it...

With us, the two bandmember in the middle pull their mic back too. The concave line really helps with eye contact communication on stage. We adjust our own mic stands as well to save the soundman a little time. Getting set up quick and starting your set can make the difference between getting through all the material that you want to perform or not.

[fateepat]

Mixing live audio is just the same as being an accomplished musician that can play many genres of music and play it very well. The real question is why don't festivals look for engineers that can handle a acoustic mix. After all the engineers are the last link in the performance chain and can make or break the entire show. More times than not the engineers often get ignored until the sound sucks then it becomes an OMG moment.

The real question is why don't the sound companies hire a engineer or engineer's that knows how to handle acoustic music? Engineers freelance all the time, they are out there. If I had a great account with a major festival I would seek out an experienced engineers to handle both FOH and monitors....period, and be the system tech. It's the sound companies reputation that is on the line when the show goes off great or sucks. Screw it up and you won't be back.

I had to learn how to mix bluegrass music because like many other's out there I grew up on rock n' roll and heavy metal. I did it by listening to hours and hours of bluegrass recordings, studying the music and structure. Really studying microphones and mic techniques. Do I still have an "ah crap" once in awhile? Oh yes, but they have become few and far between and when it does happen I can react to it better and fix it. The most important thing for me is the fact I'm still learning and if there is a new trick I can learn....I'm in!

I'm not implying that I'm the king of the hill, there are many engineers that can hand me my butt and I'll always recognize that, but I'm much more comfortable dealing with acoustic music now.

I still have my long hair, I still love rock n' roll and heavy metal, but it's no shame to admit that you learned how to also mix, acoustic, jazz, swing, or what ever genre of music out there. Like an accomplished musician who knows many genres of music, an engineer who knows how to handle all those genres becomes much more marketable.

So SoundCo's, got a big time major account with a festival? Hire freelance engineers to help you keep that contract if you don't feel you have the "chops" to pull it off, your reputation is only as good as the last gig you did.

[Mandoplumb]

I play in a bluegrass gospel band that plays mostly small to mid size churches and usually set up my own PA. The main problem I have had in playing larger places with sound guys is the sound guy acts as if he knows more about how I want to sound than I do. He is the professional and I don't know anything. The few times one has listened to me the sound is good.

[Cochiti Don]

Having worked, over the years, on both sides of the fence, you may be interested to hear that sound "guys" have as many complaints about some musicians as musicians have about sound guys.

I was a sound guy for a university for nine years for jazz groups, orchestras, the whole gamut. The bass is always too loud because the bass player can never hear himself. I'm assuming most people know that bass waves are verrrrry long and can never be heard properly on stage by the player. He never trusts the sound guy so crap ensues. I nearly went deaf in Nashville. I had to hide behind a pillar at one place just to keep the bass waves from killing me. The band was great but I knew I couldn't tell them anything.
The solution for bad sound guys is volume. Just turn everything up. Run the slides on the board to the max and go get a beer.

[farmerjones]

It took a lot of soul searching, but when I read a thread like this, I think I made the right decision to use a pickup.
We've never not used our own sound system. I just thought that's how you do it. I've been to BG festivals with all the numbered mikes stands. I just thought those were for them that didn't want to set up your own stuff.
Just ask yourself, "What would HOTRIZE do?"

[Ausdoerrt]

You do occasionally get 'bad' sound guys. And more often they aren't 'bad' as in 'incompetent', but more like 'I'm not being paid enough to actually be at the soundboard during your set' bad. Other times you get people who'll take you through an excruciatingly detailed sound check only to 'forget' all the settings later.

Then there are all the times when the band is incompetent and blames the sound guy.

But the lesson is really: bring your own sound guy, or don't complain (too much).


P.S. Still learning how to mic myself up for acoustic sets. More difficult than it seems, compared to louder genres.

[almeriastrings]

Just ask yourself, "What would HOTRIZE do?"

http://www.drbanjo.com/news-newsarch...sunlimited.php

That's their approach, right there.