Why Do Festivals Hire The Wrong Sound Guys?

[DataNick]

Out west, we are fortunate to have Old Blue...They specialize in Bluegrass/Acoustic sound PA and thus get contracted for most of the festivals...it's a sigh of relief knowing that they will be doing the sound: they understand the music (most of them are pickers), they have the right equipment and a lot of it, and they're flexible.

One of our local/regional bands, The Get Down Boys have their own sound guy and utilize a virtual snake. So they use their own mics, the virtual snake and output to the facility speakers...saves a lot of headaches...I just need the $700 or so to get one!

[mandomurph]

[QUOTE=TonyP;1188609]
We are blessed here on the Left Coast that one man, Paul Knight, has literally changed the whole way sound is done, and how it sounds on stage and in the audience. He often does a small festival all by himself. No drama. Sets up what the band wants mic wise in like 2min. Has all AKG and Neumann mics on stage. Is a bass player and knows acoustic music. A sound check goes in under 5 min and you are off and sounding as good as you can and gets better through the set. He's my hero, and to everybody who comes in contact with him.


Plus 1 for Paul Knight!! He gets it right every time. I cringe when I go to a small festival and see that Paul is not the sound man.

[banjoboy]

In Washington State, Jackson Linder is the best sound guy for BG. Unfortunately, he is a younger guy who is trying to make a name for himself and it's hard for him to break into getting several of the local festivals. But every major/national act (Special Consensus, John Reischman, Michael Cleveland, Kathy Kallick, Boxcars, etc) that he has run sound for have commented that it's some of the best sound they've ever had. But local festivals still try to save money and hire terrible sound people who don't know BG.

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . They seem to hire friends or family members who have a PA system . . . . It also seems that many times, promotors want to skimp on the money they pay sound guys, hence paying less for the friend or family member. . . .

Looks like you've answered your own question.

I once played a show where all three sound guys were staggering drunk.

And last week, I helped run sound at a festival where all the sound people were volunteers. The deal was that musicians who volunteered to run sound got scheuled to play. (I do think we were a little more discerning than your rockers or my drunks.)

I used to work for the organization that produced two of the biggest annual music events in the state, and we hired a single company, Klondike Sound, to set up all the stages. If I remember right, Klondike ran sound on the big stages and volunteers ran it on small stages.

Our better-known acts ranged from big, loud ensembles like Allen Toussaint's and Queen Ida's crews to rockers like the Subdudes to acoustic groups like Dave Grisman's posse to solo acts like Keb Mo' and Bruce Cockburn.

Klondike was great, and we used volunteers who knew what they were doing. So I think it's possible to find the balance between professionalism and economy.

(Possible, but not inevitable!)

[JeffD]

I jam with a mandola player who is a professional sound guy. He gets a lot of work.

[Larry S Sherman]

...we hired a single company, Klondike Sound...Klondike was great...

I agree that Klondike is great. Especially at the Green River Fest they always do an excellent job with a variety of musical styles.

Larry

[indexless]

As a video producer, I can tell a story or two.....last year I was hired to shoot a 5 hour show commemorating a local radio show's 1000 live broadcast.....pretty amazing in these days of canned radio. I have a lot of tricks in recording, lots of great mic's, sync them up in post. I asked for the feed that was going live on air as a reference check, the feed I got had some strange modulation on it I've never heard in 30 years of experience, the feed was useless and made the entire show useless, none of the performers (some national acts) got anything from the day. .....When I look at shooting a show now, I want to know who the sound person is, I've turned down work many times rather than do something with no result.....it's a hard job...I have others while standing in the mixing booth at the beginning of a performance look at me and say..."You got this right? I need a smoke".....tough job

[Jim]

So from sound guys perspective, more you in the mix and make you sound good instead of how you sound. Just kidding but with a lot of truth. Play you instruments at check the same way you do in performance, do not turn your instruments up after check. Sing at same distance from mic as check and same level , if you are a dynamic singer or player be that way at check. Don't check at 6 in from mic but perform at 1in. Don't t just jam around at check and say fine and then complain later.

[Charlieshafer]

So from sound guys perspective, more you in the mix and make you sound good instead of how you sound. Just kidding but with a lot of truth. Play you instruments at check the same way you do in performance, do not turn your instruments up after check. Sing at same distance from mic as check and same level , if you are a dynamic singer or player be that way at check. Don't check at 6 in from mic but perform at 1in. Don't t just jam around at check and say fine and then complain later.

So true! It's great to hear some sound guys out there are getting some appreciation, especially outdoors. Many festival-goers don;t realize how much more difficult outdoor sound is. Thanks to things as simple as wind, which can simply erase certain frequencies, it's tough to get a good balance that goes all day long, with different temperatures and humidities, not to even say different artists. And then add in additional towers with correct timing, for the big main stages. That's a tough nut. So to those who do a great outdoor job, have a tall one (non-alcoholic, of course) on us!

[tiltman]

My band - Lost Creek - played at GorgeGrass (formerly the Columbia Gorge Bluegrass Festival) this past weekend. We had a phenomenal sound crew. Stu Dodge Sound does a lot of the acoustic festivals in Oregon and Southwest Washington and they always do a good job.
(and I always make sure to thank the sound guys from the stage - they appreciate it!)

Kirk Miller

[Timbofood]

Kirk has the right idea, compliment the guys when they are good! My band did a gig at "Hoxeyville" a couple of years ago, the sound guys were great, separated boards for monitor and fronts. I got a great double take from the monitor guy when I used a members quote, "Can I get a little more talent in the monitor?" The guy reaches up for a slide and checks himself , looks up at me and has a grin like a "possum eatin' bumblebees!"
But, when sound guys are good, it's so much easier to get the sound you want, when they are really good they give you what you need. Just remember, "You can't always get what you want....."

[Bren]

Some great comments here. I didn't realise so many have shared my frustration with venue-supplied sound people.

Since I am just a plug'n'play fill-in type of musician in a variety of local bands I have developed a very simple handcarry set up of my mandolin with McIntyre pickup or tenor banjo with Schatter , good cables, and a plain old BOSS GE-7 EQ box set to cut out the troublesome frequencies and give a natural sound. Which means mostly mid-range, top and bottom cut right off. YMMV.

The mando with McIntyre doesn't have a very strong signal but with boost it's enough, and the tone is great.

The banjo is stronger but often played in a punky-folky band with electric bass and a drummer who regards being asked to play quietly as fightin' words.
Typical rock soundman: spends 45 minutes miking up drums (unnecessary in most venues) then asks for some banjo. I go "plunk plunk" for about 2 seconds and he says "That's good. I got it". I spend those gigs playing by numbers because I can't hear and sticking my head out beyond the PA if safe so I get some idea of what's coming put the front. Haven't fallen off the stage yet. Well, just the once.

Still, with any half-decent soundperson, and some really good ones, it's not unusual for punters to come up and say to me, "Great sound. It actually sounded like a banjo, (or mandolin as the case may be)".

In the ceilidh band, leader sets the sound levels etc based on experience, but once again, I feed my EQ in setup how I like it and he just does the volume and overall mixes.

Unfortunately I'm too busy with work to devote much or any time to band practice or studying use of audio equipment and so keep it as simple as I can.

I do try to befriend the soundperson beforehand and definitely compliment them on a good job if they deserve it.

One actually praised me recently for arriving with a set-up he could use at a recent multi-artist tune-book launch with fiddle, guitar and drums house band so somehow I've blundered into doing something right.

[Randi Gormley]

Finding a sound person who "gets" folk music -- especially "world music" sorts of genres, is a blessing. It's one reason why our group does our own sound (and much of the other musicians as well when we can) at smaller gigs. The problem, at least for ITM, is the sound guy who may be brilliant at rock-and-roll but has no clue what the balance ought to be when it's NOT rock and roll. We've certainly had sound guys who turn up the bodhran and guitar to the detriment of the melody players. Three seconds talking with the band members could have short-circuited that disaster before it began. You'd think the sound person would be happy to check in with the band before they begin the sound check, but we've mostly been waved away until the individual sound check is done, and then the sound person wanders off to do other things and comes back only as the show starts. Someone like Joannie Madden isn't shy about signaling from the stage to raise the level of an instrument or cut down another, but half the time we get the feeling the sound person doesn't believe us when we want the melody instruments louder than the guitar. Sheesh.

that being said, whoever handles the sound at Grey Fox is brilliant. Those people really know how to showcase the music.

[wooq]

Sometimes it's just because the soundguy they hire is the one that costs less. Festival organizers usually have a limited budget, and they spend that budget mostly on performers, permits, and port-o-johns

[Astro]

How much do "sound men" charge?

[grasspete]

Sometimes it's just because the soundguy they hire is the one that costs less. Festival organizers usually have a limited budget, and they spend that budget mostly on performers, permits, and port-o-johns

right. that's what I face most of the time. and another frequesnt case is that they hire some of their not very professional friends - that's usually the worst scenario

[Bren]

How much do "sound men" charge?

When we took our own sound guy, he got the same split as everyone else in the band. And helped with packing and loading etc.

[Astro]

What would a local festival expect to pay for a good soundman ?

When people say the promoters put all the money into the headline acts and skimp on the soundman, I'm just trying to figure out how much they're skimping on?

[Charlieshafer]

What would a local festival expect to pay for a good soundman ?

When people say the promoters put all the money into the headline acts and skimp on the soundman, I'm just trying to figure out how much they're skimping on?

That's a reasonable question. It all depends on size and layout of venue. If it's just smaller bands with limited numbers of channels and no effects (like reverb, compression, delay, etc)it's actually a fairly simple set-up. One could easily run the show, with say 4 monitors and 16 input channels (a mix of instruments and vocals) off one high-quality board. Most bands are this size: 4-5 people, with one instrument and one vocal mi9c on average. One guy may have a couple of different instruments, but don't forget festival sites are shorter, so a musician won't pack everything they would for a full indoor show. Not only that, but experienced musicians know not to try to make a mix too complicated for an outdoor event. Time is tight for sound checking, so making things more complicated usually is asking for trouble. So, if this were an indoor show, and indoor ids the critical difference, a sound guy with his own equipment might set you back $300-$500 depending on experience.

Here's where things get expensive in the great outdoors. For sound to travel outdoors in a large event, the speaker arrays and amplifier requirements become huge. For a small crowd of about 150-200, with everyone less than 100 feet away, even good powered speakers like the QSC K10's work well. But once you need to project more than 150 feet, and a crowd bigger than 200, with all the sonic distractions, the needs grow exponentially. What are those sonic distractions? Wind is the main culprit, but also ambient crowd noise, where folks are walking around, talking at the rear, heading to the food tent, etc. They're all normal sounds, but force a sound company into much larger equipment. There are the speaker towers, the massive numbers of speakers, subwoofers, etc. They all have to be aimed carefully at set-up time. If the distances are really long, you'll need intermediate towers out in the field. These require careful timing so the sound doesn't get muddied. Here's where you hear a lot of people whine, more on this in a second...

So it's the set-up that's the hard part, and then, of course, the take down. All these speakers, and amplifiers, if good quality, cost big bucks. And there's the trucking, and the storage, and the insurance in case a speaker falls and hits someone. The costs mount exponentially depending on size. For a smaller festival, crowd around 1000, but say relatively tight space, so no need for huge towers, I've heard about 5k. For a mid-sized festival, I'm thinking you're over 15k-25k, and for a really large one, hitting six figures.

That said, a small, compact local micro-festival (we've done them for fundraisers at land trusts, etc) where the crowds top out around the 100-150 mark (assuming constant movement of people in and out of the listening area), not a lot of noise competition, etc., an all-day affair would cost about $1500, man and equipment.

Anyway, geography affects that quite a bit, save for the really big affairs, those are national outfits.

But, the one thing folks gripe about at festivals from a sound standpoint is either volume or muddy sound. Humidity effects the way sound travels, as well as temperature and wind. There's a festival around us in Rhode Island, down by the ocean, that if the wind is blowing hard off the water, makes great sound impossible. Sound waves are simply bands of compressed air with different densities, and wind is, well, exactly that. So when the two collide, something usually goes missing, and the power behind wind is a bit greater. Trees, buildings, etc., also affect the sound. The easiest way to see this visually is to stand by a stream and watch water eddy around rocks, areas of current flowing backwards at the eddy lines, forming holes after to flows over rocks, and so on. That's what an outdoor sound guy's job is: make all that chaos flow in the same direction at the same time, regardless of the rocks and roots and things on the way.

It's easy to whine, it's hard to do. If you're getting reasonably clean sound at a festival, there's a lot of talent behind that. Usually more than most of the bands I hear.

[almeriastrings]

It's easy to whine, it's hard to do. If you're getting reasonably clean sound at a festival, there's a lot of talent behind that. Usually more than most of the bands I hear.

+1

[dcoventry]

When we took our own sound guy, he got the same split as everyone else in the band. And helped with packing and loading etc.

This. Your sound should not be an after thought. When you complain about bad sound and then refuse to pay for some one good, you are just adding to the lack of respect for folks who are good at practicing their craft.

[Astro]

I'm not sure there are skilled and talented soundmen around here willing to work 4 hours for 1/5th of our pittiful pay. You'd practically have to be a musician to need other's affirmation that bad.

On the other hand, I helped a tiny bit with organization of a local BG festival. Yes the sound got dicey a time or two or hours here and there . I had nothing to do with that part or any of the nuts and bolts. The equipment was all top notch and volume aplenty but I think they may have rented it separate and tried to do the sound "in house". Things got better as hours clicked by. or maybe it was the beer but by the time the headliners were up, sounded fine. Anyway if I am involved with the next one, I'll try to dig further.

[greg_tsam]

The Telluride Bluegrass Festival had a great sound crew. If anyone knows them, tell them I said THANKS!

[Bren]

This. Your sound should not be an after thought. When you complain about bad sound and then refuse to pay for some one good, you are just adding to the lack of respect for folks who are good at practicing their craft.

Just to be clear, as a four-piece band with soundperson, we split the money equally five ways. There was no fixed rate, it went up and down with the band fee, same as for the musicians.

You find a good one, treat 'em right.

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . with consistently good sound quality across the board.

If we'll pardon the expression!