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Thread: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in 1989

  1. #26
    Registered User Bill Halsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Definitely an F-4. Those bindings were sometimes scraped well below the level of the wood rim, but there's just a hint of back binding as it crosses the black stripe on the player's shirt. Besides, the points are bound and the scroll cutout has binding on both sides. All that, plus the bound flowerpot headstock, seal the deal.

    The visible color patterns in the (larger size) fingerrest, and the color & reflectivity patterns of the headstock inlay taken together would be unique to this instrument, as would the proximity of the various elements of the inlays to each other and to the tuner posts.

    By the shadow angles, this appears to have been a flash-illuminated photo. It would not be much of a stretch to roughly calculate the light source angle and the viewing angle of the instrument. Thus, with a single light source (a flashlight), a moment's evaluation of any prospective instrument could tell a lot, with photo in hand.

    Also, even though the 12th fret is often north of the cross-binding under it (as on this one), if an instrument lacked this feature, it could be a deal-breaker.

    Very best of fortune to you on your intriguing search!
    ~Bill~
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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Well 1989 is a long time ago -- we finished a big addition on our house in July of that year and those rooms have already been re-finished! Time flies

    One thing not mentioned what is the age of the photo in the first post. Is that the OP holding it or his father. Just wondering if the OP has every personally handled the mandolin so the question of Handel tuners or not has come up. The OP actually suggests that it indeed does have them. Has that point been "settled"?

    It appears that the OP has been silent since the initial post?
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  4. #28
    Lost my boots in transit terzinator's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    here's the OP's photo full size, if it works...

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  6. #29

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Wow! What a community here! I'm sorry I have been silent, I received no email notification regarding activity of my thread. I honestly assumed there would be no responses. So, thank you everyone!

    The man in the photograph is my father, so I have never actually touched this mandolin. My parents claim that this instrument was pristine, including the case. They sent it with my grandparents, who set up a booth at Renningers. My parents told them to sell it for no less than $900. We think it probably sold from anywhere between $700-900. With this said, I don't believe there would be any further record at Renningers.

    My parents said that within the case, there was a Gibson Brochure. My father thinks that this brochure advertised a "fancier" model, which he described as having fancier fretboard inlays than the standard dot. I told him that the F4 should have been the fanciest - to my knowledge.

    The picture looks to have side binding, so I assume that there is back binding. My father does not remember for sure. My father is going to try and scan the picture at a higher resolution.

    Recently, I saw the "closest" similar mandolin on the mandolincafe.com classified. Steve Hess, from Hawaii, has one that looked the part and had a OHSC with red lining. He said he thought he bought it in Georgia. Most I have seen come up for sale have purple lining, etc. It is Steve who said that the bridge on my great-grandfather's looked like an adjustable (non-original loar era). So, this differed from the one he is selling, which has the original fixed. He also said the case handle had been replaced. My parents seemed to think that the case was in excellent condition, at the time, so I believe the case handle was in tact (again, at the time).

    Thanks again everyone, the activity, expertise, and insight give me hope.
    Alex

  7. #30

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Here is another pic, less resolution, but shows more of the case.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #31

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Here are the highest resolution scans of the mandolin and the case that my father could do.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #32
    Registered User mando on the side's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Alex,

    I thought I recognized that name; This is Ed, I'm a friend of your sister and hung out with her in high school. Just thought I'd wish you good luck in your hunt and I'll keep my eye out as well for this instrument. I'm in Carmel and if you ever want to jam let me know!

    Ed

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  11. #33
    Site founder Scott Tichenor's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by afranken View Post
    Wow! What a community here! I'm sorry I have been silent, I received no email notification regarding activity of my thread. I honestly assumed there would be no responses. So, thank you everyone!
    You need to manually subscribe to threads at the top of the page under Thread Tools.

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  13. #34

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    What's in the other case on the table? That looks like a 30's Geib with butterfly hinges.

  14. #35
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Any chance that it would have the tortoise binding on the back, instead of ivoroid?
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  15. #36

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    CSI: Mandolin Cafe.

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  17. #37
    vintagemandolin.com Charles Johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Stock mid teens F4, probably 1915 or 1916. Has the guard with the plastic arm but does not appear to have the big bridge cutout. Handel tuners so its 1917 or earlier. Looks like straight string posts with no ball on the top, again at least 1915-1916. Looks like a newer adjustable bridge (a common upgrade) as it does not appear to have the original one piece. Uniform red top finish, not a true sunburst, again indicating the mid teens. The red lined case is mid 20s, but this is a easy switch especially if you originally bought the canvas case.

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  19. #38
    vintagemandolin.com Charles Johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Any chance that it would have the tortoise binding on the back, instead of ivoroid?
    I've never seen a F4 or F2 with tortoise back binding. Knowing Gibson, it could exist I suppose, or could have been repaired with tortoise, but either would be highly unusual. This was the height of the mandolin era, and F4s were high end expensive instruments; Gibson would have used their best on these.

  20. #39
    Registered User Cousin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Just a thought here, but my guess is that another potential identifier would be a glued-down bridge. Note that the bridge is upright and in the right position without any strings on.
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  21. #40
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Dave View Post
    Just a thought here, but my guess is that another potential identifier would be a glued-down bridge. Note that the bridge is upright and in the right position without any strings on.
    Hmmm... once again it is hard to tell from the one photo, but it looks to me that there are strings on it -- there seem to be dark lines on the nut in the photo.
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  22. #41

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by FL Dawg View Post
    What's in the other case on the table? That looks like a 30's Geib with butterfly hinges.
    The other case contained a Gibson guitar (model unknown) of the same vintage. It had a crack in the back and was sold separately, in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

  23. #42

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Hmmm... once again it is hard to tell from the one photo, but it looks to me that there are strings on it -- there seem to be dark lines on the nut in the photo.
    It had looked to me that the photo was taken w/o strings on it. However, my father believes that there were strings on it at the time of the photo. This may also settle the "glued down bridge" theory - which was a good thought.

  24. #43

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by afranken View Post
    My parents said that within the case, there was a Gibson Brochure. My father thinks that this brochure advertised a "fancier" model, which he described as having fancier fretboard inlays than the standard dot. I told him that the F4 should have been the fanciest - to my knowledge.
    So, a gentleman replied to my classified ad with the following note regarding a "fancier" fretboard inlay.

    Hi Alex. I'm in the Uk. The only thing that I can add concerns the advert for the "fancier" model with more inlays. Gibson did a heavily inlaid model maybe up until 1913 or so. The neck had a very fancy inlay and they did this again in the 1970s.

    This makes me think that the mandolin you are trying to trace may be 1913 or 1914 because I don't think they did the fancy ones after that.

    hope this helps

    regards

    Jimmy Powells
    UK


    I reviewed mandolinarchive.com a bit more. It looks like there is note of some 1914 F4's with "red finish" but no images - like http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/16713
    Has anyone seen a red finish 1914 F4?

    There is a 1915 with "red burst" which looks similar, though Charles Johnson seemed to think my mandolin did not have the "burst" but rather a uniform red finish. However, this one also has a red lined case. Could they have made the red-lined case prior to the 1920s like Charles suggested?
    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/22227

    Anyone have thoughts on the Gibson brochure fancy fretboard inlay theory from Jimmy? Charles seemed to think 1915-1916 and I'm just curious if it could have been earlier, say 1914 - as Jimmy theorized.
    Last edited by afranken; Aug-16-2013 at 10:55am.

  25. #44

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by afranken View Post
    The other case contained a Gibson guitar (model unknown) of the same vintage. It had a crack in the back and was sold separately, in Fort Wayne, Indiana.
    Any pictures of it? I hope it wasn't a Nick Lucas Special, that case looks pretty deep.

  26. #45

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by afranken View Post
    In search of my great grandfather's mandolin. My parents sold it at a Florida antique market called Renningers, somewhere around June 1989. Unfortunately, all I have is a pic (no serial #). Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 and my parents and I wish we could get it back, especially since I've started playing mandolin.
    Hi Alex,

    I've been following this thread and your ads with great interest and I wish you every success in locating this mandolin. Since you placed your ad, it seems a couple of likely similar mandolins have popped up in the classifieds. I am curious however what you'll do if you can't positively identify any suspected candidates or if someone comes forward with "the" mandolin but doesn't want to part with it. Curious and good luck with your search.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

  27. #46
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Yes, some earlier Gibsons had fancier fretboard inlays, but dots like these were standard by the mid-teens. If there was a brochure in the case showing a mandolin with fancier inlays, the brochure was likely several years older than this mandolin.

    Looks to me like there is one A string on the mandolin in the photo -- there's definitely a line from the second A tuner down to the nut. That would be enough to hold a floating bridge in place for a photo. I doubt it is fully strung; G strings in particular should be heavy enough to show up even at this resolution.
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  28. #47
    Registered User Bill Halsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Here's a pixel-enlarged crop of the headstock -- open it and take a good look:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm having a hard time accepting the Handel tuner theory. Not sure what's going on with the resolution on the original photo (assume it's a film print) -- maybe a problem with the emulsion? Anyway, if the negative is still available, perhaps a hi-res scan or a new enlargement directly from that could be of some help.

    I, too, was wondering what happened to the strings... again, perhaps something with the red dye of the print bleeding across the string image. However, I do barely detect strings crossing the nut. After all, the guy is holding a pick.

    There are a few compelling features of this mandolin that point me to the post-Handel era, i.e. after 1918. These tuner knobs are generally the same color and reflectivity of many of the later pre-Loar Gibbies. As fuzzy as the enlargement is, I'm not seeing anything like Handel inlaid tuner knobs. The string posts are the later "top hat" design, but then I've seen those from as early as 1915. Also, is that a chip out of the second E tuner knob (another identifying feature)?

    The logo inlay may just display a "closed-o", which seems to appear occasionally in 1921, on some of the pre-trussrod F-4s.

    Of course, the bridge would be from after the early 1921 transitional era, i.e., the final version with a broader base with a patent date & narrower top to match the saddle, which could possibly have just squeaked in on a pre-trussrod F-4 (I have one of those on a 1921 pre-rod A-4 that appears to be original factory fit-up work, not a replacement).

    However, even though it's the later style fingerrest without the bridge cutout, it certainly appears to have the older celluloid support rod attached by two screws to the side clamp.

    I think the red case lining is not an indicator, as those go back to at least as early as 1911.

    All in all, it seems most likely to me that this is a late 'teens F-4 with a replacement bridge.
    ~Bill~
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  30. #48
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Wow, impressive triviata there, Bill. You know your stuff. Thanks for analysis.

    BTW Alex, I assume that you and/or your folks are prepared to pay something like 7 times what you sold that for originally, should ypou actually find that one.
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  31. #49
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    I'm glad you guys who really know these old Gibsons with better resolution available than us viewing with IPads have cleared up some of our earlier missteps but the further this goes the identifying differences are very few. Let's see we have the approximate year and we may have a chipped E tuner button of non Handel buttons, the inlay spacing and colors on the headstock and the few particulars of the finger rest and bridge. To muddy the water even more a lot can change about this mandolins appearance since it was sold in 1989. I'm afraid it appears this needle is the color of straw that you are searching for.
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  32. #50

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    My mother has a box of negatives for all the film prints but she is missing this one - she figures her folks took the picture. So, we are trying to track that down. Maybe there could be another photo - I'm hoping but not counting on.

    The evidence of Will Millen's play seems to be in the 1920's. I'm working on obtaining scans of a couple of "Ragpickers" programs we have - not that it will lead to much - more just for historical sake. Dates on these are 1923 and 1924, I believe.
    I'm attaching the two scans I've received.
    One is a picture of the "Millen brothers". Will is on the left, unfortunately not playing his mandolin. Jim Millen on the right. My mother seems to think this was taken in the teens in Clarinda, IA.
    The Red Oak Sun newspaper ad had a date on the back of April 23, 1920. This seems to indicate that the Red Oak, IA "Benedict Piano Co" hired Will Millen to demonstrate Gibson mandolins...?
    It appears that most of our evidence points to mandolin playing in the early twenties - so far...
    Maybe this could complement the post-handel theory...

    Anyway, I thought these were pretty cool.

    Click image for larger version. 

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