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Thread: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in 1989

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    Default In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in 1989

    In search of my great grandfather's mandolin. My parents sold it at a Florida antique market called Renningers, somewhere around June 1989. Unfortunately, all I have is a pic (no serial #). Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 and my parents and I wish we could get it back, especially since I've started playing mandolin.

    My great grandfather, Will Millen, played in a Red Oak, Iowa band called the Ragpickers. He died in 1938.

    From my limited knowledge, I'm estimating that this is an early teens (1914-1917) F4 (based on the peghead / inlay & Handel tuners, and some browsing on mandolinarchive.com). Looks like the bridge may not be original. My parents remember the mandolin and case being in excellent condition.

    I know I'm searching for a needle in a haystack but if you know anything regarding this mandolin, please let me know. Thanks.

    Alex
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  2. #2
    Site founder Scott Tichenor's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    That's what the web is good for, searching for needles. Can't say it'll help but I've posted this on our Facebook/Twitter/Google+ pages and I'm headed to place it on the Cafe home page in a bit. Would also suggest you post a Wanted ad in the Classifieds using this same text above. You never know. Have seen some incredible finds over the years no more difficult than this. If there's one good thing the internet should do for us, I can think of not a finer example.

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    Registered User Bob DeVellis's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Without a serial number it will be really hard to know that a given mando is "the one." Maybe someone will know the history of their mandolin well enough to trace it back to the 1989 sale. If you have any other pictures, it would help to see it in multiple images so that any peculiarities of finish or grain could be used as a guide.

    Best of luck!
    Bob DeVellis

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    Musically Omnivorous tablaninja's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Call Mountain Music in Chatanooga TN at (423) 875-5250
    They had a red F4 approx 1917 the owner had bought to get restored. This was back in February. Good luck!

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    It is hard to tell whether the bridge is original and even if there are Handel tuners -- at least hard to tell about the tuners on that one photo. It is possible that the person who bought it from Renningers would read this. You never know. Good luck on that search.
    Jim

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    Musically Omnivorous tablaninja's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's a photo I took. I have some of the label inside on my home computer. Will post them later.

    SITE OWNER'S COMMENT: not sure why you've posted this as it's not the instrument in question and is confusing to the forum at large... Please explain.
    Last edited by Scott Tichenor; Aug-13-2013 at 1:26pm.

  8. #7

    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    FYI
    I saw a very similar F4 in Crescent City FL (not too far from Rennigers)in early 2005. For sale at "crescentcitymusic.biz"
    Good luck
    Jack W

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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    From the 2 photos it looks like an F2( no rear body binding,etc.). The first photo show a standard Gibson tailpiece but the second has a cloud tailpiece and what looks like several very long cracks(hopefully repaired cracks) in the top wood. the second photos looks like an older year F2 than the first Are both the photos of your grandfathers mandolin? If so which photo was the most recent?
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    I got confused, too, Hank. Tablaninja is not the OP. The second pic is just of an F4 at Mountain Music in Chatanooga TN.
    Jim

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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Not knowing what research you have done, I'd suggest starting with trying to talk Renningers in to searching their financial records for any mention of the deal. Then I'd try tracking down the members of the Ragpickers or their families to see if they have any photos of the band. If they were a bluegrass band, then I'd be very surprised if they didn't go to any area festivals where there would be jam sessions which inevitably would increase the likely hood of finding photos of your grandfather with the mandolin. I bet someone has a drawer full of band photos. More photos of the mandolin increases the likelihood of identifying key aspects of it. If you found some additional photos then you could start by comparing photos to those in the archive then move to google images. Just my two cents.

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle3585 View Post
    ...I'd try tracking down the members of the Ragpickers or their families to see if they have any photos of the band. If they were a bluegrass band, then I'd be very surprised if they didn't go to any area festivals where there would be jam sessions which inevitably would increase the likely hood of finding photos of your grandfather with the mandolin. I bet someone has a drawer full of band photos...
    Ragpickers couldn't have been a bluegrass band if OP's grandfather died in 1938; too early. From the name, they may have been a jazz or ragtime string band. No Google hits on them, just some contemporary groups. Coulda been just a local group, never recorded, not a big "paper trail."

    I think starting with Renningers makes the most sense. Low probability of success, but if you don't try, the result is certain...
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    Musically Omnivorous tablaninja's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by tablaninja View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's a photo I took. I have some of the label inside on my home computer. Will post them later.

    SITE OWNER'S COMMENT: not sure why you've posted this as it's not the instrument in question and is confusing to the forum at large... Please explain.
    I'm very sorry, my comment and the picture of the one I saw in Chattanooga were meant to go together. I thought it fit the description of the one in question but I was mistaken. Please remove my photo or help me figure out how to remove it. Thanks.

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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    I agree with Hank, the OP pic appears to be a F2 with Handel tuners. Does that make it 1917 or earlier?

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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Looks like a bound headstock to me (in the first photo), which with the flowerpot inlay would indicate an F4...

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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    That may be our first distinguishing identifier an F2 with a bound headstock in the years before Handel tuner buttons we no longer available. Thanks Jim, that second photo threw me a loop.
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    The red case lining is another identifier and is likely still paired up with this mandolin if it also was in good condition as the OP states.
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
    CHAO-PIEN

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    I am not sure where the F2 ID is coming from. I have not seen any F2s with flowerpots. I still do not see the Handels in that one OP photo. It may just be fuzzy tho.

    Unless there are some critical identifiers like a cracked pickguard or characteristic wood pattern, or if it is paired with a case with hotel or old band stickers or that had band literature in it, it will be very hard to find this in the "haystack".

    In any case, you came to the right place. The folks here will help more than anywhere else.
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    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Ignore the second photo, guys. The first is an F4, just as Jim says...bound peghead, flower pot etc. Can't see the bridge, but my guess is that it will be original. It looks very well cared for from the photos. Those may be Handels, but yes, kind of fuzzzy.

    Best suggestions has been the sighting in Crescent City and contacting Reningers for sale records. I don't expect they have had very many F4's come through the shop. Good luck tracking it down.
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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Ok the distinguishing feature is that it's an F4 without back binding if it's not an F2 with upgraded headstock binding and inlay.
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Not sure from the picture if it has an unbound back. You really can't see it...top bound perhaps? I think it is exactly what the OP says, a red F4 with Handel tuners.
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Do you have the original photo shown in the first pic? It may be useful to take it to a professional photoshop and have it scanned in much higher resolution.

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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Why would they side bind the top and top bind the back?
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    Why would they side bind the top and top bind the back?
    Yeah, that would be stupid and never seen.

    I agree that in the photo you really can't see any binding on the back...so I guess it could be an F2 with an upgraded peg-head. Anybody seen anything like that in person?
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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    I looked through Dan's Mandolin Archives hoping to stumble on to a similar configuration without any success. If it in fact has no back binding it is very different and distinguishable for that feature alone. The red case lining alone not so much but the two together would be a slam dunk.
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Default Re: In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in

    Right click the picture and open in a new window and it has enough resolution to show that it may have Handel tuners (or a ring of dirt or shadow on each button<G>) and an original pickguard and clamp--click on the picture and it'll zoom pretty large. The tuners look more "Handel" with less resolution than more. It also appears to have a double torch on the headstock (pre-truss rod) although the light isn't that good. Again, the light is poor but it appears the fretboard is bound. F4 if all this is true. I don't see any evidence that shows whether the back is bound or not. Not enough side showing to tell. What shows of the bridge base looks like Loar era, but comparison with an original should settle that.

    Maybe it went back for repair at some point.

    Fun exercise!

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