The never ending search for an in tune mandolin... continued

[Wupeide]

OK - so I have basically given up on my Kentucky KM1000B. It looks nice... the positives end there... and if you are considering buying one... DON'T! IMO, you will regret it. The instrument cannot be played in tune. I have adjusted the bridge and filed down the nut to no avail. Also it doesn't have a radiused fret board and it is exhausting to play. (Not to mention that the plastic top of one of the tuners just cracked and fell off).

OK - enough ranting about that... the question is... do I go out and buy a Collings (only to be disappointed again for much more money...) or do I buy a few different cheaper models - like the an Eastman (for around $450) and hope I get one that can actually be made to play in tune?

I have to say it... mandolins suck! I love them... but they suck. I am so tired of the misery brought into my life by expensive crappy instruments that have so many problems!!! And it seems the only solution is download an e-book and become a luthier. Heeeeelllllp!

[Jeff Budz]

A fretted instrument will never be totally in tune, but I have lots of mandolin family instruments that are just fine to my ears. A setup by a good luthier will help, assuming you are having difficulty finding one in China. Perhaps buy a fiddle?

[Franc Homier Lieu]

No! Keep searching! And in the meantime, just send me that lemon. I will even pay the shipping from China.

But seriously, on a thread last year you wrote that your KM1000B

plays almost perfectly in tune

What happened? Did it get worse? Sure sounded fine in the video you posted. You were asking about 'buzz' in the other thread, but to demonstrate it you were fretting somewhere midway between frets or even further back. Any mandolin will buzz if not fretted cleanly.

[bmac]

As suggested above... I believe you are obsessing over your tuner reading and not your ear... Any electric tuner will drive you crazy as I found out when my luthier told me what i was viewing on my tuner was "normal" variation.

In my opinion you may have given up way too early on your instrument.

You do not mention your bridge adjustment... A too high bridge can make push fretted notes way out of tune. If your mando has not had a luthier adjust it after purchase then it likely has never been fine tuned. A luthier should be able to adjust it into tune and more comfortable playing. Plastic knobs are cheap and easy to replace.

And yes! If you can't afford to hire a luthier then become one yourself. Instructions for analysis and adjustments on frets.com and other internet sources.

[stevedenver]

I don't know why you are having such issues,
and I do agree that a mando out of tune is simply more annoying than any banjo, IMHO

but I can guess

without meaning to be smug my rigel my brentrup and my Gibson fern all play in tune, like a les paul fretless wonder, all the way up past the 17th fret, no exaggeration.


my truths on this subject, based upon my experience

set up and bridge placement-these take a good deal of time to do right, and change with the type and gauge of string-DO NOT under estimate how critical a foundation this is-it takes several tries and retries-bridge placement and getting the 12 fret note dead accurate is crucial along with string height-a strobe tuner does this better than MY ear, much better-ALL things tuning related flow from proper bridge placement and string height
the nut, must not bind, use graphite powder to help-or #2 lead pencil dust

the strings and instrument often have to settle , things change in hand and out of the case-bang out some tunes hard and re-tune often

it is my experience, that Tomastik strings, unlike any other brand, on all of my mandos, simply are THE most stable and often I don't need to re-tune for hours!!!!! imho , regardless of flatwound tone issues, I love these for this reason

get a great peghead tuner and use it often-the new Peterson is simply, unequalled-my ear works fine, but among other instruments, or mid tune-there is nothing better, and they are 'sweetened' or tempered and im not afraid to admit that it is better than my ear-

so, for about 95 bucks (tuner and one set of Tomastik flats-(the lights seem to slide through most nut string slots effortlessly) and some time setting up your intonation and action, you will never need to tune except on the full moon.....LOL

to be honest, it is hard for me to believe that should you buy a Collings, you would be unhappy, or have these issues, provided the set up and bridge placement are done properly.

a less pricey mando, if set up well, true neck and true neck angle, and proper bridge height, frets being level , nut properly cut, etc, can play beautifully-it may take more adjusting or even some replacement parts sometimes (especially a bridge)

search the forum for "set up" and find the links -these are really helpdful
the other thing, and I rarely tout "buying stuff' to make life better, is a strobe tuner-for intonation, there is no equal, especially on mandolin, because there is so little margin or error , especially as you go up the neck, bridge placement has to be dead accurate, and this may change with a change in bridge height, so it takes a steady hand and several repeats to get it perfect -'really close' will not do. It is rarely the tuners themselves, and after bridge issues, then nut issue, ie the string sits too deeply or too snugly in the slot, or otherwise binds.

If a maker doesn't pay close attention to certain details, then you must correct these, and sometimes its a lot or work and some more expenditure.

best of luck to you!

[JeffD]

A good set up will have solved all those problems.

BTW I do like the stability of the Thomastic Infeld strings. The last long, sound great, and stay in tune better than so many others. I also like how they feel when you play them.

Its not the sound that I want in many cases however.

[Steve Ostrander]

Are you saying that that the intonation is off, or that it goes out of tune as you play it?

[stevejay]

I had thought intonating for the 5th to 7th made sense on a problem instrument, since this is where you are most of the time. Older strings do sound a little out, I am experiencing this now. The tolerances are small on such a high tension instrument.

[davidb1]

I hear you, and I feel your pain.To my perfect ear and brain , the shorter the scale, the more potential there is for harmonic violation...Ok , so how to resolve this dilema..tune for the key of the song..(accepting that your instrument is in tune..and has the possibility to even be in tune..I would advise after the instrument has been proven to "be in tune" then relate it to how the ensemble sits..with necessary discussion to resolve interval violation.

[Wupeide]

Yeah - you are right... I was wrong... I should have done a more careful analysis at the time... I think I just wanted it to be in tune. Anyhow, I have a tuner now. So I am not depending entirely on my ear.

[Wupeide]

OK - I have reloaded the meldrum e-book. Tools are coming in the mail... I will give it one more try... a complete setup from start to finish. If that doesn't do it, I guess I need to buy a new instrument. I may need to anyway, since I really miss the radiused finger board.

Thanks everybody.

[Wupeide]

It is consistently off and it seems that I can fix it by adjusting the bridge.

[Willie Poole]

Just a point...I always stretch my strings quite a bit when I first install them and then let it sit overnight and go at again the next day and that seems to help mine stay in tune when I play it, one other thing is that if the slots in the bridge saddle and/or nut are too tight the strings will get pinched when you pluck them and not go back to their regular tension, that will be addressed in Robs instructions...There a few ways to lubricate the slots so that strings will slide easily and come back to the proper note....

good luck....Willie

[Wupeide]

*cannot

[JeffD]

If that doesn't do it, I guess I need to buy a new instrument. .

Take it to a pro. Get it set up right.

I would not be able to set up my own instrument. I could follow directions, but I would not know what to adjust how much once something went wrong, or off the menu. Soon enough I would make a hash of it. I could learn it, but that cuts into my picking time.

I change strings, I tune 'em up, I play 'em, and I wipe 'em down. I don't do set ups or dress the frets or adjust bridges or necks and I never take a sharp tool to a nut slot or fret. Different hobbies.

[Tom Coletti]

the question is... do I go out and buy a Collings (only to be disappointed again for much more money...) or do I buy a few different cheaper models - like the an Eastman (for around $450) and hope I get one that can actually be made to play in tune?

Well, if you do decide to part with the Kentucky, here are some singular options based on what I've played and liked:

Used Collings MT-- really great modern tone, playability, and construction, plus perfect intonation and tuning. You'll save a lot off the list price if you get a used one.

Breedlove FF-- surprisingly similar in tone to the Collings for about half of the price; it has the punch of an f-hole mando but a touch of sweetness I'd expect from an oval hole. It emphasizes the treble and bass while the Collings seems to emphasize the midrange. Tone is very nice, sustain is exceptional, playability is effortless with big frets and a wide nut, and I've gone as long as two weeks without having to tune it.

Weber Gallatin F-- comparable to the Breedlove, but with a dry-yet-sweet sort of traditional tone, smaller neck profile, less sustain, and close spacing. Available in both maple and mahogany back/sides depending on what tone you want.

There's plenty of other options for a similar price to the 1000B. Or you can invest in two instruments, like an Eastman MD-515 or used Breedlove OF/Weber A and a vintage Martin oval hole flat-back (often found for $500-700) so that you can experiment with different sounds for different styles.

Cheers,

--Tom

[Wupeide]

Thanks everyone! Sadly, there is no one anywhere near where I am living who can do mandolin setups and I can't seem to get an answer from Mike Marshall (my online teacher) about where the pros go. I have followed the advice of forum members before and that has just led me to more incompetent people who claim they know what they are doing.

I have been using the Meldrum ebook over the past few days and made some progress. (The action is much better!) However, I have hit a snag. I went through 6 e strings... they just keep breaking every time I try to tune them. The nut groove isn't too small and it's lubricated and the strings keep breaking in different places. I am completely lost... Can't buy decent strings here. I will have to order them on line and wait a week.

Why does this have to be so impossible? Again, I have to say, this mandolin community is a sad place. How is it possible that professionals can't do a decent setup? As I get into the Meldrum book I can see that the setup done for me by Stephen Perry was so far off the mark of what Meldrum is talking as to be laughable. But then again, who knows if Meldrum is a reliable source...

Meanwhile, the hours I have spent on trying to fix this instrument are fewer hours spent practicing. Sorry for venting all this here. I am sure there are many people who have been through the same insane frustration.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I don't see this thread staying open much longer. Calling out Mike Marshall and Stephen Perry in the same post is some kind of record.

[Tom Wright]

On the E string question, I wonder if you are sure of the gauge? Wrongly labeled string packages have been known to happen. Or it could be you are watching the tuner as you come up to pitch and overshooting before you realize it. Remember the tuner doesn't usually distinguish between octaves, so you might be trying for the wrong one. That said, I hope I did not insult your ear, which should warn you as you approach pitch. If you are confident about the pitch I suspect a defective or wrong-label string.

As to setup, it will be a challenge to achieve pleasing tuning if the strings are high, either at the nut or bridge, and also if the neck is bowed. Too much bowing, or neck relief, will make it hard to find tuning agreement between the first few frets, since the string will be high at the 5th or 7th fret even if the nut is low. And if you try to lower the 7th-fret height by bridge adjustment, strings will bottom out on higher frets. If it has an adjustable truss rod, try tightening it so that the neck is dead straight under tension. You can do this while strung if you are cautious, and help it by a gentle back-flexing of the neck by hand to settle it after tightening a little bit.

For the nut, it is a little tricky to positively measure clearance, even with feeler gauges. I just observe closely under bright light as I fret the string pair on the 1st and 2nd frets. The change in angle, or the observed downward change, should be only slightly more from 0 to 1st fret than from 1st to 2nd. Ideally it is identical, but it is safer to only try for nearly so. Nut files are very nice to have for this. Also be aware of any difference in height between the strings of a pair. If they are not really well matched your unreliable unisons will make tuning difficult.

I have struggled plenty with tuning, and find the short mandolin scale makes all these issues critical, compared to guitars with their longer scales. The deflection angle to the frets is prone to being too steep without getting the clearances really close. And that means pitch is very sensitive to fretting pressure.

Finally, always check your fifths by playing the octave above (5th fret) and/or matching harmonics (12th fret harmonic against 5th fret fingered). It is not easy to get all the octaves good without having the fifths sound a bit tight and harsh.

[Russ Donahue]

I think this thread should be shut down before even more unkind words are said about people who do know what they are talking about. There has been an uncommon generosity exhibited towards the OP, which at best is misunderstood, at worst is ignored.

[Mike Bunting]

I think that the problem is operator error.

[almeriastrings]

I will try to keep this simple. The KM-1000 is a very, very decent mandolin. I have worked on quite a few of them, and still have two myself. Suggesting they are not worth buying is absolute nonsense. The real problem here (from what I can tell) is that a) You do not have a clue what you are doing and b) You are using very poor grade, substandard strings. You'd have problems with any mandolin in that situation. Unfortunately, it seems you have no access to a good mandolin luthier. That is what you really need. It does not require magic: just knowledge, experience and common-sense. Rob's book is a good starting point but there is more to it than that, and some of it requires special tools. All of it requires that you approach it right. You need to go back to basics and get the bridge in the right place to start with. Put some decent strings on there. That should get you at least 80% there. The rest is 'tweaking'. Nut, frets, etc (though in my experience even the factory setup on nut and frets of the KM-1000's is perfectly serviceable). I have not seen a 'bad' one yet. Some minor 'tweaking' can get everything spot-on pretty easily. Stephen Perry is a very good mandolin setup person, incidentally. Highly regarded. He knows what he is doing, whereas you plainly do not.

I am trying to be helpful here. You need to slow down, stop blaming the instrument and other people and realise that you have to approach this in a calm, methodical way. An instrument the quality of the KM-1000 can certainly play "in tune". If you really are using terrible quality strings, that could be a very big part of the problem.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

The videos here provide even more insight into what is going on.

http://www.youtube.com/user/wupeide

[Ted Eschliman]

I have followed the advice of forum members before and that has just led me to more incompetent people who claim they know what they are doing.

All the effort here to try to help your situation seems to be doing you little good. Perhaps it's time for to find another resource.