Most Common Clef for Mandola

[dulcillini]

Good Evening:

What is the most common clef that mandola arrangements are written in ? Is it the alto clef or the 8vaTreble (like tenor banjo), or is it simply on the grand staff beginning with C in the bass clef ?

I guess that the treble 8va kind of makes sense because the low open string C on the mandola would be shown like piano middle C on the staff, but actually is an octave lower.

On the other hand, I see some classical music using the alto cleff set up.

How are viola arrangements written ?

As always, thanks in advance for all the insight that I am certain to receive from the great people on the Café.

[mrmando]

Viola parts are written primarily in alto clef, although violists are expected to read treble clef as well, since composers may switch to treble when writing "up the neck" for the viola.

Mandola notation is a more complex matter. In some American orchestras, mandola parts are written in alto clef. However, they may also be written in treble an octave above the actual pitch, or in transposing notation, which is treble a fifth above the actual pitch.

[bratsche]

Speaking from a violist's standpoint, the very idea of attempting to read music written in treble an octave above the actual pitch makes my brain hurt. Treble at the actual pitch is all right, though it can get a little hairy in the lower register. Of course, alto is best (with treble thrown in as necessary higher up).

bratsche

[mrmando]

If you're going to play the viola in any setting other than orchestral and chamber music, it will behoove you to get comfortable with octave transposition and reading in other clefs. And that goes double for the mandola.

One of the best things I ever did for myself as a musician was to play viola in the college jazz combo for a year. Read a lot of trombone parts.

[Jim Garber]

If you're going to play the viola in any setting other than orchestral and chamber music, it will behoove you to get comfortable with octave transposition and reading in other clefs. And that goes double for the mandola.

I think it goes triple (or more) for violincello or mandocello: they are also expected to read bass, treble and some of the other moveable c-clefs, tenor and alto, I believe.

[JeffD]

I taught myself alto clef to play my mandola. I got a beginner viola book and just had at it. It was a struggle, but there was a point where I just broke through.

[Steven C. Antonelli]

I'm interested in this transposing notation mentioned earlier in this thread. So in effect the mandola player would be thinking and responding like he was playing mandolin but he would be somewhat unconsciously transposing? That's a cool trick. Although I believe that learning alto clef is probably the best bet since most string music which many mandolin groups play have the viola written in alto and who wants to take the time to transpose all that even with the assistance of software.

[Jim Garber]

I did the same when I played mandola. I concentrated over the summer. However, I haven't read on mandola in years tho i would like to get back to it. The big problem is switching back and forth and reading treble on the mandolin. That was the reasoning behind universal notation -- it made it easier for mandolinists to play mandola and mandocello without having to learn a new clef.

[Jim Garber]

We did a Brandenberg Concerto (I think #3 -- all strings) in one of the New York Carlo Aonzo Workshops. I played one of the three mandola parts but it was written for us mandolin players to finger it as if we were playing mandolin. The notes came out correct tho when played on the mandola.

[Eddie Sheehy]

At the Mandolin Symposium the Mandola parts for the Orchestra are handed out in Alto and Transposing Notation (looks like a mandolin part but plays correctly on a Mandola)

[mrmando]

There's some long thread from a few years ago where we thrashed out precisely what transposing notation is.

Octave-treble notation comes from the European tradition of using octave mandolins rather than CGDA mandolas.

[margora]

"I'm interested in this transposing notation mentioned earlier in this thread. So in effect the mandola player would be thinking and responding like he was playing mandolin but he would be somewhat unconsciously transposing? That's a cool trick. Although I believe that learning alto clef is probably the best bet since most string music which many mandolin groups play have the viola written in alto and who wants to take the time to transpose all that even with the assistance of software."

Hi Steve,
I wrote an article about this for the CMSA mandolin quarterly sometime ago. In the early 20th century "Golden Age" of mandolin music in the US, the mandola mostly meant the CGDA instrument (although the octave was known, and used, and parts were written for it in 8va treble). Parts were frequently transposed up a 5th and written in 8va treble so that the player could play the CGDA instrument as if it was a mandolin, as this discussion is describing; but otherwise would be in 8va treble, or "universal notation" as this was referred to at the time (and still is, in mandolin circles). In a group that very rarely plays string orchestra music and which frequently uses the octave instrument, such as the PMO, it makes sense for the parts to be in 8va treble. For the rare gig where we do play a string orchestra piece -- such as when the PMO did the Brandenburg #3 with the NYME -- the mandola section will all play the CGDA instrument, and some of us will read a transposed part (I myself read alto clef perfectly well, but in a performance setting would prefer the transposed part as I almost never play the CGDA instrument). We do have a player or two in the mandola section that play the CGDA instrument and prefer 8va treble notation -- a good thing, since we play a lot of European/Australian works that use said notation.

"Octave-treble notation comes from the European tradition of using octave mandolins rather than CGDA mandolas."

Octave transposing clefs have a long history in Western music. The octave version of the mandola dates back to the 18th century, long before the CGDA version. Parts for octave mandolin have always been written in 8va treble, to the best of my knowledge, similar to guitar, where the use of 8va treble dates back to the transition from French tablature.

When I do an arrangement for the PMO (or another similar group), the mandola part is written in 8va treble, because I am assuming the use of the octave instrument (my arrangements are typically in 5 parts: M1, M2, Dola, guitar, bass). That said, I am conscious that the part might be played on the CGDA instrument; sometimes it doesn't matter, because the player will simply octave transpose notes that are too low for the CGDA instrument, but in other cases it will. At the upcoming CMSA, the En Masse Orchestra is doing one of my arrangements where I ended up writing a separate alto part (and a separate cello part). In such cases, I notate the CGDA part in alto clef in the conductor's score, and I give the performer whichever clef they want. Since the CGDA part is in computer notation, it takes all of a few seconds. A trivial issue.

[margora]

"That was the reasoning behind universal notation -- it made it easier for mandolinists to play mandola and mandocello without having to learn a new clef."

I would say that was how universal notation was marketed at the time by Gibson, but the reasoning is disputed by Paul Sparks in his book on the classical mandolin.

If I were playing in a "classical" quartet that played plucked versions of string quartets, one should use the CGDA instrument and simply read the original viola parts. It makes little sense to use the GDAE instrument in a "classical" quartet because the parts generally lie too high up the neck. Ditto if I were playing in a mandolin ensemble that plays transcriptions of string orchestra works, like the New York Mandolin Orchestra.

If I were playing in a mandolin orchestra that specialized in early 20th century "Golden Age" American music, I could generally use either the CGDA or GDAE instrument, but if I use the CGDA instrument I better learn to read parts in 8va treble or transposed notation since that is the form of "historical" notation that was used -- just like if I am playing renaissance lute, I better learn to read French and Italian tablature (and German, if I am a professional).

If I am playing in an ensemble that plays contemporary music, such as the PMO, Het Consort, or most every German or Australian group, I am generally better off playing the GDAE instrument, in which case I will be reading 8va treble.

[dulcillini]

Thanks folks. I knew that I would get the right answers. I think the best strategy would be to man-up and simply learn the alto cleff and treat my mandola as a separate instrument. Though more difficult, I can see long term benefits to this. Thanks again for all who so expertly replied. One of the great things about this site.

[Tom Wright]

I switched to viola for school orchestra while still studying violin---the previous two violas graduated to high school, so I got to be solo. I just played as if it was a violin in treble clef but aimed a third lower, e.g. what looks like B on the G string, one ledger line down, is actually open low string, which is a C. You get into trouble when you think it's an F on the D string, (3rd fret) when it's really a B on the G, (4th fret). But you'll catch after a bit when it sounds wrong.

[bratsche]

In my junior year of high school, I was the concertmaster (mistress?), but also once played from a hastily hand-transcribed part the first time I held a viola in my hands (had to substitute for an ill viola soloist in the last movement of Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante). Eleven years later, I finally switched to viola after auditioning for my third orchestra job on violin, and being advised to come back in a couple months and audition again, with different pieces. Not only did I play different pieces when I went back, I got offered a job after playing totally new (to me) pieces on a borrowed viola. I spent the couple of months in seclusion practicing for the audition, as well as studying books of viola etudes and excerpts, forcing myself to learn alto clef once and for all.

bratsche

[Steven C. Antonelli]

Thanks Bob. You've seem to always have the definitive answer.

[JeffD]

I spent the couple of months in seclusion practicing for the audition, as well as studying books of viola etudes and excerpts, forcing myself to learn alto clef once and for all.

There are these great moments. I love it. It seems to me these moments of all out intense preparation, though experienced alone in solitude, are what bind us together as musicians. When I read the biographies of great musicians, I look for that moment in their lives when they decided to "get serious" and exit from daily life for a while to work out the details.

We get together in public to demonstrate what we have accomplished in private. Or something like that.

[margora]

"I think the best strategy would be to man-up and simply learn the alto cleff and treat my mandola as a separate instrument."

That is certainly one way to do it. However, you should be mindful that opportunities to play the CGDA instrument in a mandolin ensemble setting where you will be reading alto clef will be infrequent in the US (unless you make your own, by finding two other mandolinists and a mandocellist who reads bass clef; you might also be able to convince your local community orchestra to let you sit in the viola section), and virtually non-existent elsewhere. If you want to play the CGDA instrument in a (typical) mandolin ensemble setting, it would be useful to learn to read 8va treble as well. Alternatively, for such settings, use the GDAE instrument.

[Jim Garber]

In the Aonzo Manhattan workshop the mandola section always plays from sheet music written in C-clef. When I was in the NY Mandolin Orchestra it was the same thing. We never used universal clef and I don't recall any octave instruments in the orchestra. That may have changed, tho -- I haven't played in that orchestra in years. Of course, we generally played from standard string orchestra scores.

It would be interesting to hear from other orchestras and see how they handle the mandola question. I know what the trends are in Europe vs. North America but I wonder about the specifics.

[margora]

"In the Aonzo Manhattan workshop the mandola section always plays from sheet music written in C-clef. When I was in the NY Mandolin Orchestra it was the same thing. We never used universal clef and I don't recall any octave instruments in the orchestra."

Yes, both are true, and both are special cases, the former (Aonzo) reflecting the tastes of the local organizer, who also plays in the NYMO. The Aonzo workshop meets once a year (ditto, the Mandolin Symposium), the NYMO is a going concern but only plays a handful of concerts a year. As you note, Jim, the NYMO plays string orchestra music exclusively and not, to my knowledge, any original music written for mandolin ensemble. By contrast, the PMO almost never plays string orchestra music and almost always plays contemporary music for which the GDAE instrument is often the best choice. See my comments above, which point out that if the group in question plays string orchestra music, the CGDA instrument will be preferable for instrumental reasons, in general, and the parts will, of course, be in alto clef. IF the CGDA instrument is the ONLY mandola one plays then IMHO one should learn to read alto clef and also 8va treble assuming one is also playing contemporary music for mandolin ensemble in which the music is either contemporary (and therefore, typically, written for the GDAE instrument) or the music is from the early 20th century, in which case there will typically be two mandola parts, one in 8va treble, the other transposed.

In other words, my recommendation is detailed, contingent on the nature of the ensemble music one intends to play. Overall, I think that the best approach is to learn alto clef on the CGDA instrument, and use it if one is playing string quartet or string orchestra parts; and use the GDAE instrument otherwise. That is what I would do -- but I play the CGDA instrument so rarely that on said occasions -- almost always in public and almost always one-off situations -- I'd just as soon play a transposed part, rather than allocate scarce rehearsal time correcting my errors in reading alto clef. But this requires that one own two instruments, a CGDA and a GDAE. Not everyone can do this.

[Ted Eschliman]

Best advice I got studying trombone in college as a music major was to learn both alto and tenor clef as well as bass (and treble), NOT to think transposition. It paid off well in the trenches reading orchestral passages, not to have to reroute the brain and think transposition. The only way to do this was with devoting time on some method books for trombonists that drilled this. Spent the better part of a semester working on the skill.

Curious if there is such a thing written for mandola.

[margora]

"Best advice I got studying trombone in college as a music major was to learn both alto and tenor clef as well as bass (and treble), NOT to think transposition. It paid off well in the trenches reading orchestral passages, not to have to reroute the brain and think transposition. The only way to do this was with devoting time on some method books for trombonists that drilled this. Spent the better part of a semester working on the skill.

Curious if there is such a thing written for mandola."

Hi Ted,

"Transposition" in this context has a special meaning. A "transposed" part for the CGDA instrument is transposed up a 5th and then written in 8va treble. If one plays the mandolin -- and, it is assumed, one is fluent reading treble clef -- you just play the part that you see imagining your CGDA mandola to be a mandolin (or more precisely, an octave mandolin). One is not, mentally or otherwise, transposing anything. It is very, very simple -- but only if you play mandolin and read treble clef. If you don't it is not much of a help.

By contrast, if one is playing a "universal notation" part for the CGDA instrument, this will be written in 8va treble. What sounds as middle C in concert pitch will be where it is supposed to be -- 5th fret of the G string. However, what one sees on the page is a C that is an octave above this, because the clef is 8va. In this case, one must mentally octave transpose. For me, this takes just as much effort as reading alto clef -- which is why, in his book THE CLASSICAL MANDOLIN, Paul Sparks pointed out that universal notation has a fundamental flaw for the CGDA mandola and, as well, the mandocello -- for these instruments, you'd be better off learning alto and bass clef since it takes just as much effort at the start and you get to read string orchestra/string quartet parts.

However, we are now almost a century later than the "Golden Age" of American mandolin music and said music is passing into the realm of "early music" -- meaning, that one needs to learn the special notation used back then if one intends to read from the original scores/parts, just as one needs to learn French tablature if one is learning to play the renaissance lute.

[Jim Garber]

Bob: I was not at all questioning your reasoning or even evaluating one mandola over the other. Just reporting the facts as I know them. I consider the PMO one of my favorite mandolin ensembles and I thoroughly enjoy your repertoire as well. I personally have no preference for the type of mandola tho I do own a premium one that needs to be played more. I am considering playing my CGDA mandola assuming I attend the Aonzo workshop next year. I just have to reschool myself in the c-clef.

The folks who can switch back and forth between clefs and instruments truly impress me.

[Jim Dalton]

If I may, I'd like to offer some suggestions about HOW to learn to read alto clef (or any of the clefs, for that matter.)

I was lucky enough (without realizing HOW lucky, at the time) to learn all seven clefs at a very young age. Part of my conservatory teaching responsibilities is the teaching of ear training classes which cover alto and tenor clefs (in addition to treble and bass) and a score reading class in which we cover the remaining four and bring all seven to a relatively comfortable level.

You can train yourself to read by interval rather than by note location. In other words, if you know a few points of reference (the clef actually gives you the first one) and can recognize the interval spacing on the staff (which is the same no matter the clef), you'll eventually find the whole learning process easier and will especially have much less difficulty switching between clefs.

I'm not saying this is easy – it will take some serious work– but will be much more effective than memorizing all the note locations.

A great resource for this is:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...d_i=B002WKR1EO

This book gives you points of reference for each clef and after drilling with those, has you work with a step above and below each point of reference then a third above/below and so on through the intervals. It goes through all the clefs – so, it might pay to go back through the ones you already know to get used to reading by interval.

Then, of course, you'll want some real music to play so, as you get comfortable with the clef, grab some viola music (or Renaissance vocal music) from IMSLP.org and get to it.

____________________________________

On an entirely different topic, knowledge of clefs makes it easier to transpose. You simply choose the right clef and key signature and just sight read– no real transposing necessary. But that's for another time...