Monroe's Loar

[StuartGold]

I just received a DVD from Netflix called Bill Monroe-Father of Bluegrass. It's an OK DVD and a lot of info in it. Towards the end of the DVD, there is a discussion of one of his Loars that was virtually destroyed by some idiot with a fireplace poker and the Gibson technician talking about rebuilding it. An amazing story. What struck me as interesting was a photo (frame grabbed and posted below) showing the body of the instrument with the back taken off. I noticed that the tone bars seemed to run from the kerfing all the way to the head block. I don't remember seeing this on any of the designs that I've seen for the F5. How common is this?

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

I just received a DVD from Netflix called Bill Monroe-Father of Bluegrass. It's an OK DVD and a lot of info in it. Towards the end of the DVD, there is a discussion of one of his Loars that was virtually destroyed by some idiot with a fireplace poker and the Gibson technician talking about rebuilding it. An amazing story. What struck me as interesting was a photo (frame grabbed and posted below) showing the body of the instrument with the back taken off. I noticed that the tone bars seemed to run from the kerfing all the way to the head block. I don't remember seeing this on any of the designs that I've seen for the F5. How common is this?

Wasn't some idiot....it was an "angry woman scorned" an angry ex-lover that broke into his Goodlettsville Tennessee farm cabin and hot pokered his Loar to death. Needless to say the message was pretty personal, she struck "straight at the heart" of who he was. Actually to me it looks like typical "parallel-tone-bar" bracing to me with the braces a bit scalloped.

[sunburst]

The Loars I've looked inside of have had that feature, I can only assume that it was standard procedure because I've only looked inside of a few of them. I do tone bars that way, but I don't think it makes any real difference as long as the bars are carved to "airy thinness" near the ends.

[MikeEdgerton]

Here's one extensive thread about the incident (there are a lot more), I'm not sure if anyone ever asked about the tonebars but I see John Hamlett has jumped in.

[HoGo]

Actually to me it looks like typical "parallel-tone-bar" bracing to me with the braces a bit scalloped.

Yes, typical Loar style tone bars, but they are not scalopped (like on Guitars) but rather tapered toward their ends thickest under the bridge feathering to nothing.

[Spruce]

Any chance of a higher res capture of that pic, StuartGold??
Great shot!!

Or any other shots you could capture would be highly appreciated....

[StuartGold]

That image was the frame grab at full DVD resolution. I just took my original image and processed it in Photoshop and tried to sharpen it a bit. Don;t know how successful I was though.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'll hazard a guess that "the Gibson technician" was Charlie Derrington.

[jim simpson]

I've never heard of it's existence, but I've made previous inquiries as to an interior "after" photo of the repairs. I can just imagine various cleats all over it.

[Pete Counter]

I have a recording Charlie Darrington made the day monroe got it back and he talks extensively about what he did, I'll have to go listen again but I dont remember "Cleats all over it".

[jim simpson]

Here is a crude illustration of an imagined before and after patch job. It's exaggerated but illustrates what one might guess was needed to strengthen the severe damage. I can't imagine no reinforcements for that degree of patchwork. I believe Charles D. was a miracle worker in that it looked so good after restoration.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Charlie Derrington's work on re-building Bill Monroe's shattered mandolin,has to be one of the wonders of modern lutherie. That Bill Monroe was able to play it for many years afterwards, & that it suffered no 'difference' in it's tone, is little short of miraculous. That the mandolin is now locked in a display case & is un-played & un-heard, is little short of scandalous (IMHO). Like many famous & mega-expensive Violins,it should be insured & loaned out to one (or several) of the finest players on the scene today.I'd love to hear it in the hands of say Chris Thile / Adam steffey / John Reischman to name but three. Imagine a modern recording of several top line players,each playing a tune(s) on Bill's mandolin - do you think it would sell ?,
Ivan

[Timbofood]

I agree, this "Lock it up and worship" concept is nuts, these fine instruments need to be played!
Very much a "velveteen rabbit" thing here, until they have a little wear they are not truly loved. Locked up they have no voice, and fine instruments want to speak.
Ivan, how do we get together and figure out how to make this happen?

[MikeEdgerton]

I thought I recalled seeing pictures of Monroe's mandolin during the repair but I may have been wrong. I just spent some time searching and came up with these images, most were here on the Cafe.



In addition, there are some small but great images on Alan Bond's excellent site here. There's some other really great stuff on that site if you poke around.

[Ben Milne]

In addition, there are some small but great images on Alan Bond's excellent site here. There's some other really great stuff on that site if you poke around.

Too soon!

[Willie Poole]

Because it was Monroes mandolin it can be treasured even though it is not 100% original any more....Most mandolins and/or guitars and banjos that have been rebuilt or altered in someway are not rated as highly as one that is original....Of course there are a few exceptions like Lamberts "fern" Loar....

As far a some noted pickers making a recording using Monroes mandolin, I would like to hear that also but whoever is the owner now would probably never hear of it....I know it was supposedly sold a few years ago but all of the money never was paid so I guess Bill`s son James still is considered the owner

[Big Joe]

It is in the country music hall of fame in Nashville. The mandolin was heavily used for another decade after its repair be Charlie. We continued to maintain it for the remainder of Bill's life. It still did the job. Charlie did an amazing job!

[MikeEdgerton]

Willie, You're referring to this. I don't think James owned it at that point because he was paid for it. The trustee of the estate of Bob McLean apparently had real control of the instrument and wanted it back. I do believe there was a fund raising effort to raise the money to pay for the mandolin and keep it in the Country Music Hall of Fame. As of 2008 the mandolin was still there but there was legal wrangling going on. Anybody have a link to an update?

As of 2009.

As of 2013 the mandolin is listed in a collection at the CMH0F as one of the "Precious Jewels".

[Ivan Kelsall]

OMG !!! - Mike,i'd never seen many of those pics of Bill's trashed mandolin.To do something as heinous as that is so totally beyond my own nature,that i can't even conceive the mind set of somebody who would do such a thing,but the term very seriously disturbed springs to mind.
Tim - One of the ways that it could possibly be made to happen, is an appeal to the avaricious side of the custodians. If enough top players were to express an interest in recording a CD using Bill's mandolin,were it to be made available,then i'm sure they'd at least get a hearing. A portion (or maybe all) of the cash raised via sales,would go to the Museum where it's kept. For me the sound / tone of Bill Monroe's mandolin is THE sound that got us all hooked (well,most of us !) & for it never to be heard again is stupidly ridiculous in the same way that it would have been ludicrous for Clarence White's guitar never to be heard again after his tragic passing. It simply needs the will to at least try to make it happen. After all,the custodian's can only refuse at worst,that's if somebody cares to ask them in the first place !.
It would be interesting if,at say,the IBMA festival later this month,some of the well know players were to be asked about their thoughts on such a project. I also wonder what the thoughts of the custodians of the mandolin would be if a dozen or so of the finest players out there expressed a desire for such a recording project. Imagine if Dave Grisman,Chris Thile,John Reischman,Mike Marshall,Herschel Sizemore .... were interested - those are some big guns not easily ingored - mmmmm !!. Why am i 3,000 miles away,
Ivan

[Dave Hanson]

Ivan, you can't conceive the mindset of someone who would do such a thing but bear this in mind, ' hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. ' which sums it up for me.

Dave H

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote - " hell hath no fury like a woman's corns " Point taken Dave,& bunnions is even worser,
Ivan

[Timbofood]

That's a fine idea Ivan! Why are you 3000 miles away!?
I will try to put a bee in an ear about that, I have a friend who goes to the IBMA gathering most years. We can only try.

[Big Joe]

The instruments in the hall of fame are not maintained in playing condition. Just to get it in shape to play would require some work. Secondly, an instrument worth 2 million dollars is not likely to be allowed to be used by their insurance carrier. They are kept for display as historical items. Unfortunately, they are not maintained as functional instruments.

[Mike Bunting]

I never saw the mandolin after the incident but I was told by a very prominent first generation blue grasser that the mandolin did not regain it's original sound after the repairs. Anybody get to hear it live before and after?

[f5loar]

I recall for decades many thought the tone bars were different on Monroe's Loar than other Loars. It was not until the poker incident that the back was removed and the tone bars photographed for the first time. When superimposed onto other known Loars with backs off they are the same as other Loars. The tone did change after the repairs as one would expect. Best comparison is the Master recordings and his last studio CD, Crying Holy. The very best comparsion would be to hear for the first time the final 16 instrumentals recorded in 1994. Only Boston Boy has been released so you can compare his break on that song.