Mandolin Rhythm on the Backbeat

[9lbShellhamer]

Typically Rhythm chops are played on the 2 and 4 beats, the "backbeats".

Are there any examples of Mandolin rhythm chops which are played on the "And" beats though? (like on the back beat during eighths). (In bluegrass/ newgrass music specifically...)

What I mean is as follows...

Typically its One-chick-three-chick. (one- chop- three- chop)

But sometimes I hear it played like this... One-chick-two-chick-three-chick-four-chick)

I listen to a lot of Thile from How to grow, Deceiver, etc, and sometimes I hear a ton of rhythm chops. Like on his version of Brakeman's Blues maybe? I can't remember specifically. I noticed he sometimes even hits his G string like a guitar player on the on-beat maybe?

Thanks for addressing my newbie questions... I'm progressing rapidly thanks to the help you've all provided.

(I searched a lot on the forum before posting this btw, and couldn't find much on this particular topic. )

[Mike Bunting]

Most of the bluegrass tunes are in 2/4 time ergo they are chopping on the eighth between the beats.

[Tobin]

This isn't really about the time signature. Chopping is always about rhythm. If you tap your foot to a song, play the chop when your foot comes up. Doesn't matter if it's 2/4 or 4/4, or whether you're chopping on quarter notes or eighth notes. The upbeat is when the mandolin chops.

[9lbShellhamer]

Interesting... I think my foot usually usually "taps" on the on and off beats so you're saying I should be chopping not on the 2 and 4 beats, but in between the beats...

like one-chick-two-chick-three-chick-four-chick, or in 2/4 one-chick-two-chick-one-chick-two-chick...?

Thanks for the 2/4 time comment. It got me to look at time again...

For guitar I've used the Bert Casey Flatpicking book and mandolin I've worked mostly with the Sam Bush instructional book and dvd and the Steve Kaufman 4 hour bluegrass workout and those all are in 4/4.

The music I play along with is everything from old school bluegrass to newgrass and I can play along fine, chopping when I should, but I want to understand WHY.

If my role as the mandolin player is basically percussion and rhythm man, then I want to know the details of rhythm.

Thanks again.

[Tobin]

Interesting... I think my foot usually usually "taps" on the on and off beats so not so sure that'll work? Another analogy? Thanks.

Simple. Tap your foot half as fast!

OK, another analogy. Imagine a snare drum playing along with the song. You chop between his drum beats. Unless he's playing on the backbeat, in which case you should tell this imaginary drummer to play on the strong beat.

And another one. If you have a bass player, your chops (generally) go in between his notes.

The "why" is simple. The mandolin fills in the backbeat that other instruments provide on the downbeat. You have it right with the "boom-chick-boom-chick" mentality. Be the chick!

[9lbShellhamer]

YES! Bingo.

That's what I've been doing...playing along with the bass player, inbetween his notes.

So in a 4/4 song would the bass be playing on one-two-three-four, and I play inbetween, OR would the bass be playing on one-three while I play on two-four.

I thought originally that I was playing on the two-four but it sounds like I'm actually not. I'm playing in the right spot, I just don't know what its called...

[Pete Martin]

Too much going on from one rhythm section instrument leaves little room for others. You must always be listening to how you are "fitting in". Often less is more...

[9lbShellhamer]

http://www.mandolincafe.com/bluegrass.html

Per the above link and a ton of other resources, it sounds like I am definitely chopping on the 2-4, and not chopping in between the one-two or one-three.

Yes. Less is more. Got it! Just trying to get this nailed down so if I am in a jam, and it's not as easy to follow along as recordings, I play something well that fits in. Sometimes when I play with just a guitar my mando chops sound rather like Bob Marley. (I did read that bluegrass and ska actually have a lot in common... heh heh heh, interesting though!)

[Killian King]

Sometimes when I play with just a guitar my mando chops sound rather like Bob Marley. (I did read that bluegrass and ska actually have a lot in common... heh heh heh, interesting though!)

Funny you should mention this. I am relatively new to the instrument and did not really practice chop chords for the first 8 months or so of playing. When looking for songs that I knew to practice, I stumbled onto a bunch of ska classics.

Pretty much the whole Specials catalogue is perfect.

[Mike Bunting]

Too much going on from one rhythm section instrument leaves little room for others. You must always be listening to how you are "fitting in". Often less is more...

Truer words were never spoken. I used to gig with a Juno nominated drummer who taught me a
pile of stuff in this vein. When I'd do a chop, he'd lay off the high hat. I learned to lay out a lot. As an example, if I had a solo coming up, I might chop on the preceding verse and then as soon as I started the solo, the high hat would come in. I learned a ton from this guy.

[ralph johansson]

Typically Rhythm chops are played on the 2 and 4 beats, the "backbeats".

Are there any examples of Mandolin rhythm chops which are played on the "And" beats though? (like on the back beat during eighths). (In bluegrass/ newgrass music specifically...)

What I mean is as follows...

Typically its One-chick-three-chick. (one- chop- three- chop)

But sometimes I hear it played like this... One-chick-two-chick-three-chick-four-chick)

I listen to a lot of Thile from How to grow, Deceiver, etc, and sometimes I hear a ton of rhythm chops. Like on his version of Brakeman's Blues maybe? I can't remember specifically. I noticed he sometimes even hits his G string like a guitar player on the on-beat maybe?

Thanks for addressing my newbie questions... I'm progressing rapidly thanks to the help you've all provided.

(I searched a lot on the forum before posting this btw, and couldn't find much on this particular topic. )

There's some comfusion over terminology here. I like to speak of 2/2 rather than 2/4 (the difference is purely notational), so we have 2/2 vs. 4/4, the same whole note subdivided in two different ways, two modes of the same thing, sometimes coexisting.

Most BG, esp. the really fast tunes, are in 2/2, which is strengthened by the chopping on the afterbeat, the "and"'s between the 1 and 2. However, I prefer to think of the chop as part of an overall pattern, often stated more completely by the guitar. You are right about Brakeman's blues; what Thile plays is really a chug-chugga-dinga-ding thing, although emphasizing the afterbeat. He's an exceptionally good and imaginative rhythm player; you should hear him and Bryan Sutton stirring up some beautiful cooking behind Mark O'Connor on, e.g., Jesse Polka (30-Year retrospective).

And if you listen to the YouTube video of Monroe's Uncle Pen you can hear him doing
some nice flourishes and rolls at critical points. There's much more to rhythm than just chopping twice in every bar.

On a slower piece I myself prefer a more even, more fourish, groove, sometimes even a shuffle, accenting the cracks between the four beats. Whether 2/2 or 4/4 will determine the role of the mandolin, guitar, and bass, and there certainly is, or should be, an interdependence between the three. In other words, LISTEN! Being a guitarist more than a mandolinist I like to think of the guitar really putting the bounce into the overall sound, and the mandolin contributing something on top of that. There are LOTS of uncharted possibilities.

[Killian King]

I happened to be listening to Django Reinhardt and Stephane Grappelli on the way in to work today. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems the rhythm guitar chops on the 2&4 in most of these songs as well. Is that true of swing jazz generally?

I have to learn their version of Honeysuckle rose now.

[ralph johansson]

I happened to be listening to Django Reinhardt and Stephane Grappelli on the way in to work today. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems the rhythm guitar chops on the 2&4 in most of these songs as well. Is that true of swing jazz generally?

I have to learn their version of Honeysuckle rose now.

Your descripiton leaves out about half of the stuff; if you want to know more you can watch some YouTube video explaining "la pompe". The one (2 hours!) with John Jorgenson is particularly instructive. And that's not the way Charlie Christian comped with the Goodman sextet or Freddie Green with the Basie band, to name but two examples.

[JeffD]

I like your comment - your doing it right, you just want to know why. Good priorities, I think. Listen, emulate, understand, innovate, in that order.

[9lbShellhamer]

Ralph- Thanks for the informative post. (couldn't figure why I got a thumbs down though... )
I appreciate the clarity. It really sheds some light on the the original question.

I'll look up the Thile and Sutton stuff asap. I'm excited to check it out.

[Killian King]

Your descripiton leaves out about half of the stuff; if you want to know more you can watch some YouTube video explaining "la pompe". The one (2 hours!) with John Jorgenson is particularly instructive. And that's not the way Charlie Christian comped with the Goodman sextet or Freddie Green with the Basie band, to name but two examples.

Thanks, I wasn't trying to describe anything in detail, just pointing out that I hear a strong accent on the 2 &4. Chop might not be the right word since it isn't the only thing the rhythm guitar is playing, but there is an accent there for sure.

I watched a video explaining La pompe and the muted strum on the 2 & 4 seems to be a lot like a chop chord.

[ralph johansson]

Thanks, I wasn't trying to describe anything in detail, just pointing out that I hear a strong accent on the 2 &4. Chop might not be the right word since it isn't the only thing the rhythm guitar is playing, but there is an accent there for sure.

I watched a video explaining La pompe and the muted strum on the 2 & 4 seems to be a lot like a chop chord.

And yet it differs in character from the mandolin chop; two different instruments, and in different ranges. E.g.,in the four note G chord that Jorgenson demonstrates, the low d is below the range of the mandolin and the high d corresponds to the d course on the mandolin. Since people are fond of drum analogies one could compare manouche-style guitar to striking the open and closed hi-hat alternately (as Jo Jones did).

Sometimes I feel that some of the modern Mnaouche players (e.g., Lagrene) are much too faithful to the original.

Grappelli didn't like being reminded of the Django years. There's a beautiful album of him and Svend Asmussen with a "modern" (for 1965) rhythm section
including Oersted-Pedersen on bass. (On Storyville, a Danish label).

On several recordings Jorgenson uses a trimmed-down drum set, and several of his tunes incorporate ideas from entirely different idioms.
Check out, e.g., the Teatro Olimpico DVD or the Ultraspontane CD.

[ralph johansson]

Ralph- Thanks for the informative post. (couldn't figure why I got a thumbs down though... )
I appreciate the clarity. It really sheds some light on the the original question.

I'll look up the Thile and Sutton stuff asap. I'm excited to check it out.

I don't know how it got there or who put it there. Maybe I pressed the wrong button. Sorry about that.