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Thread: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

  1. #1
    Registered User Jairo Ramos's Avatar
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    Question Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    hi, my name is Jairo and I'm from Cali, Colombia. I'm studying mandolin since three months, basically the Rich del Grosso method and Ray Valla bluegrass mandolin method. In my city, and in my country, there is not mandolin academies or teachers, so the self study is the only way to go.

    The method of Rich del Grosso is more easy, the melodies are in a more easy pace, but the method of Ray Valla is more harder. I have begun to study the first lesson, the beautiful melody Liberty, fundamental in bluegrass style. For practice I have downloaded the backing tracks in The Flatpick Apprentice site, very popular in this forum. The backing tracks came in different bpms, from 150 to 240. I´m not sure the bpm of Liberty in Mr.Valla method, it is not indicated, but I believe is 200 bmp or more.

    Practicing with the backing tracks, I have begun from 150, then 160, and now I am practicing Liberty at 170 bpm. I believe, practicing and practicing, that may be I can achieve this melody at 200 or maybe 190, the first part of Liberty is more easy and I can play this part at 200 bpm, the second part require more practice.

    The question is, is there a sort of canon about the pace of the bluegrass melodies, do I must to try to achieve this 200 bpm, or I can be happy with 180 bpm as a correct and normal pace?

    The second question is: I have heard a lot of Liberty versions in this forum and youtube, and each version has a different B part, I mean, there are subtle differences in each version of the B part. I had learn the version of Mr.Valla in his method, is required that I must to learn the other versions? I mean, what is your advice for a student about all that different versions.

    Thanks in advance for your help

    greetings from Colombia

  2. #2
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    There is no official speed at which these tunes must be played. Liberty is an old time fiddle tune that I like to play around 180bpm. 200bpm kills the soul of the piece. But other tunes sound better faster or slower. It all comes down to what sounds good to you.

    All tunes will have some variation between players. The chord structure should be the same in most cases, and the melody should be similar enough to be recognizable, but minor variations are to be expected. That way, if you are playing the tune in a bluegrass jam and taking turns, it makes it more interesting.

    Good luck with your studies! It sounds like you are off to a good start!

  3. #3
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    Greetings to you as well!

    I agree with Tobin -- 200 bpm is kind of fast for a tune like Liberty, which has a beautiful, albeit a bit delicate, melody.

    OTOH hand it kind of depends on the picker -- someone like Alan Bibey can play Liberty at around 230 bpm and make it sound good while adding a lot of decoration and loads of triplets as well. But personally I like it a bit more leisurely pace -- 170 - 180 bpm sounds good to me too -- especially on the A-part.

    This is just my opinion, but I don't like Liberty in BG style -- it's an old time fiddle tune played for dances long before bluegrass ever was created.
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  4. #4
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    Just remember they're dance tunes!

    f-d
    ˇpapá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

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  6. #5
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    Just a note about speed.
    Regardless of what tempo you eventually find to work for the tune Liberty, speed comes with practice and experience. Practicing for speed is OK, in moderation, but some time in the future, after you've learned many more tunes and gained more experience with and knowledge of the instrument, you will find that you can play Liberty well above 200 bbm, and then you can decide what tempo you like. In other words, don't spend undue time trying to get a certain tune up to some specific speed, just keep learning, playing and practicing, and speed will come.

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  8. #6
    Registered User Manfred Hacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    Jarapa, just to put your aspirations into perspective:
    I am not a prodigy but not a slouch either. But after my first 3 months of mandolin practice I was very happy to be able to play Liberty IN TIME, CLEANLY, at about 120 bpm (quarter notes). (and I had played the violin as a kid and was familiar with first position)
    After years of practice I was able to play it at about 190 CLEANLY with GOOD TONE (but don't like it at that speed).
    IMHO, you should not so much focus on speed than on timing and good tone.
    Practice other tunes as well and your speed will gradually increase. Then when you come back to them after a while, you will be surprised that you can suddenly play them at 10 clicks - or more - faster effortlessly.

    As has been said above: many of the fiddle tunes sound so much better when played at a moderate tempo. Saint Anne's Reel, for example, just sounds great a about 165.
    After years of private practice I have been going to a jam recently. When I kick off a fiddle tune CLEANLY at about 170, some people, mostly banjo players, try to speed up when it's their turn. (Now, by the way, I also understand the sometimes caustic remarks about banjo players much better regarding their dominating loudness drowing out everybody else)
    HOWEVER, SOME of the people who want to play faster all the time are neither able to keep time nor play CLEANLY at the faster tempos.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education - Mark Twain

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  10. #7
    garded
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    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    HOWEVER, SOME of the people who want to play faster all the time are neither able to keep time nor play CLEANLY at the faster tempos.
    This is so true, it can not be emphasized enough. I know what it's like to study something where there are no other mandolin players around. I'm almost totally self taught out of books. Speed is not everything, clean playing with good tone means more to me than flashy playing.

  11. #8
    Registered User Jairo Ramos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    Hi everybody!!!

    Thanks for your answers, all have been very useful advices. As a beginner, and in first place because is a total new music to me, I thought that I must to learn the tunes at the speed the teacher plays it, and I have no the skills yet, so I was very nervous. I know now that it takes a lot of work and practice, and hear all the music I can.

    Fortunately I discovered this forum, all the members are ready to help and give advices, I am proud to become a member of this community, and believe me, very eager to learn all these beautiful old time tunes.

    Jairo

  12. #9

    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    Jairo,

    On the CD that came with Ray Valla's book, the first track is Liberty at the slow speed. Track 31 has it at regular speed.

    Colombia es mi segundo pais! Mi esposa es de Colombia y tenemos ninos de adopcion de Colombia tambien! Me gusta el centro comercial de Cali se llama Chipi Chape. El segundo apellido de mi esposa es Parra tambien.

    I hope you help spread Bluegrass music in all of Colombia and Latin America! Maybe we can get together sometime if we ever get back to Cali. We are usually in Bogota and el departamento de Tolima.

    Lance

  13. #10

    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    If people are just listening you can play faster, if you are playing for dancers you have to play slower.

  14. #11
    Registered User sarai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about Liberty and bluegrass in general

    I have to agree. We did Liberty here around 200 and it was probably a bit too fast - it was just impromptu out of woodchopper's reel. We like to do our fiddle / dance tunes a bit on the slower side usually. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoD7OzXehVE
    It's interesting to hear how bluegrass is all over the world.

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