capturing that bluegrass sound

[sweed]

Hi everybody,

I'm a mando player in college and love bluegrass - except I'm about the only person in the school that listens to bill monroe, flat and scruggs, etc. or knows the first thing about bluegrass! I'm up in new york so I alot of my friends are jazz musicians primarily. they all say theyd love to play bluegrass but when we do it just doesn't sound like bluegrass.

we've gotten together in groups with guitar (sometimes two), myself on mandolin, fiddle, and banjo (but not really a bluegrass banjo - more like the guitar player who figured out some banjo tricks). As of yet we haven't had someone on upright. We had someone on electri before but that just added to the weird feel.

The fiddle is great but I think its the guitar that really isn't giving a bluegrass feel. For starters they don't play with capos. I see almost all bluegrass guitar pickers using capos (though I don't play guitar, so I'm not sure how much they help or not). Furthermore they dont play any little runs/fills/licks while playing the rhythm part. It's basically plain, measured strumming. But they are college kids so If I tell them to go buy a flatpick guitar book or take some lessons they probably won't do it, rather just stick to their ways.

1.) I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas for advice I could give to my fellow guitar players in achieving that bluegrass sound. They are both incredibly talented jazz guitarists and great musicians - i think they just need help with a new style.

2.) Sort of related question, in regards to singing. I'd love to learn how to sing bluegrass harmonies, but I don't know the first place to start. What's a good way to learn? Instructional material? Seek out a vocal instructor at school (knowing well that they are probably classically trained, maybe there is a jazz vocal instructor as well).


Thanks for whatever help you guys can offer!
Alex

[tmsweeney]

I am in no way a bluegrass expert, and anytime I've played with NE musicians it sounds, just like that, North Eastern, not Southern or mid-Atlantic. For me I think Bluegrass is as much about "where" the notes are, as what they sound like. I think experienced Jazz musicians can appreciate that, but it is the mechanics that can be intriguing. First things First - simplify.
Focus on arpeggios and chord structured melodies. Rhythm is everything in Bluegrass, my only recommendation is to imitate whatever it is you are trying to play, like Flatt and Scruggs or Monroe. Don't worry about sounding exactly like the recording-aspire to sound exactly like the recording, as much as possible. After you are "comfortable" with the style you can improvise and personalize.
I've only recently began to try and play Monroe, and its no where near as easy as one might think it is. I find it harder to understand where he is coming from melodically and rhythmically, than say Bach or traditional Irish music. Most of my attempts at Monroe come out sounding stiff and well, "Northeastern". I think once I have mastered the mechanics, I'll need to relax and focus on rhythm. I hope this wasn't more confusing than helpful. Last word for bluegrass mandolin players "Mike Compton".

[Vernon Hughes]

The guitar plays a mighty role in getting the "bluegrass" sound. Hard to try and teach someone the mechanics of it, either you hear it or you don't. I guess it's best to seek out someone in your area that does it well and study from them. As far as vocals, give the voice teacher a shot. A traveling,performing band I was in years ago had voice lessons and it really helped with enunciation,breathing and such. She/He would most likely be well versed in parts from knowing music. Easy enough to pick out the 3 notes in a chord to make the lead,baritone and tenor harmonies.

[ErnieG]

As far as the guitar player goes, get them to listen to Lester Flat or Del McCoury. Yes, bluegrass guitar pickers use a capo. This has to do with chord voicing. That A bar chord on the fifth fret does not have the big feel of the capo'ed G. Plus you get to do all those bass string licks. Just listen to those older recordings that's the place to start. By the way, Mr.Sweeney is right about Compton.

[mtucker]

The guitar plays a mighty role in getting the "bluegrass" sound. Hard to try and teach someone the mechanics of it, either you hear it or you don't. I guess it's best to seek out someone in your area that does it well and study from them.

Great points. Get them listening to this stuff, so they can get it in their head. Like learning a new language without hearing it spoken. Understanding the nuances (the color and tone) are really important to making it work.

[SincereCorgi]

...(but not really a bluegrass banjo - more like the guitar player who figured out some banjo tricks)...

This is sort of a big deal. Even if everybody else is playing perfect idiomatic bluegrass, if there's a banjo doing non-bluegrassy banjo stuff, it's going to cut through and sound weird.

[Tobin]

I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas for advice I could give to my fellow guitar players in achieving that bluegrass sound.

Play faster.

[Mike Bunting]

Listen to bluegrass music. They are are good musicians, they should be able to hear what's going on.

[swampy]

I feel your pain. I just played a gig a couple of weeks back. The guys I normally play with said no problem, and even after suggestions and feedback from me it just came up short. I am the only guy from The South, and I could not get them to appreciate what was going on rhythmically. The best part is they spend so much time making fun of me and saying how easy bluegrass is, how hick it sounds and they can't even get a 3 chord song right. The reason I fell in love with bluegrass music was the drive, without it, it just isn't bluegrass. In my experience Jazzers and Rockers make some of the worst bluegrass players, because they tend to dismiss it on account of it being simple from a harmonic standpoint and they miss the subtleties of the feel. Playing with others that are just faking it is the worst. I liken it to being in a loveless relationship, no fun for anyone. The worst was when I overheard the guitar player telling a friend "yeah just listen to Bill Monroe if you want to know what we sound like." I was embarrassed to say the least. Hopefully I can find some guys that really are into it, but slim pickings in these parts.

[AlanN]

This is so true, and so key to having a good bluegrass sound. As Vernon said, either you have it or you don't. Can it be taught? Yes, but...

I was in a band where I tried to get the guitar man to get it, he couldn't get it. I had to leave that band. Mind you, I don't need a Tony Rice, Kenny Smith, Tim Stafford type picker, but I do need one who has the basics down - the rhythmic grooves and moves to make it a grass-type guitar thing. Like Del, Red Allen, Russell Moore - you name it.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Bluegrass-Brea.../dp/0252071174

Robert Cantwell has a chapter where he discusses the role each instrument plays in a bluegrass band. This chapter has music notation, rythmical guidance etc. It should be very helpful to understand how the bluegrass band sound is put together.

I would use this as a rule of thumb. If you listen to a lot of bluegrass with the understanding from the Cantwell book, you will recognise where you can stray from the norm.

As to singing vocal harmony there´s no better aproach than this: www.harmonybyear.com (I guarantee you)

[rockies]

I agree with the main points above guitar is the key to the sound. When I first heard bluegrass I thought this will be a "piece of cake" until I found out what a discipline it was, learning good bluegrass guitar rhythm has so far taken about 25 years but I'm getting closer. I came as well from a swing/jazz background. So have your musical pals listen to IMHO the Bluegrass Album Band (TR on rhythm), Union Station (Tyminski, Ron Block etc), Chris Stuart band (Chris on rhythm) , John Reischman (Jaybirds) with Jim Nunnally on guitar and of course Jimmy Martin. If your guitar player can sit down and emulate any of those then he can call himself a rhythm player and you will have the start of a bluegrass band.
Chris Stuart told me once " rhythm guitar is all about creating space for the other guys to use"
Dave

[JeffD]

Listen to bluegrass music. They are are good musicians, they should be able to hear what's going on.

This is key. Listen. A lot.

[Bill Foss]

This is key. Listen. A lot.

Yes listen. Also there is a wealth of great instructional material out there. Start with some Homespun Tapes videos. Peter Rowan for guitar.

[johnhgayjr]

Easy - just tell 'em to do this:

[grassrootphilosopher]

Yes listen. Also there is a wealth of great instructional material out there. Start with some Homespun Tapes videos. Peter Rowan for guitar.

Guys, listening may come easy for any of us who started learning by listening. But the more I see people play music, the more I find out that people learn by reading music than by listening to it. They who do read music are mostly unable to learn by listening.

The other day I had a guitar teacher over. Apart from the fact that he´s a nice guy, he is a heck of a classicaly trained guitar player. He can dance circles around me when it comes to write arangements and to play according to notation. I can barely read notes.
But when it came to play the "Evening Prayer Blues" he was entirely wrong with his chords, his rythm, most anything. I even gave him notes to the tune. But he was unable to dig the irregular chord change etc. He miscounted constantly. The same happened with Jerusalem Ridge. (even with the Monroe recordings as backup)

To make a long story short. To play bluegrass it takes a certain musical approach. You can do that as a music reader, it came natural to me as a listener. But you can´t tell a music reader to listen to music. You have to educate a music reader. On the other hand you can´t show a listener notation and expect him to read it and understand what´s written out there.

Still, for notation readers and for everybody else, I think that Robert Cantwell gave the best written (and in part notated) explanation as to how the instruments interact in a bluegrass band.

[Bill Baldridge]

All of the various musical genre's that influenced bluegrass not denied, to my ear bluegrass is an expression of mid-twentieth century, Southern, rural America culture. It was taught and learned by ear. My first response to the OP's question about learning to sing bluegrass harmony was "listen to Southern Gospel." To those of us who grew up in that culture, three part harmony learned in church was the first, if not the only option. Assuming the person can carry a tune, no one will be out of place singing southern gospel harmony in a traditional bluegrass song. It is not that people raised in different cultures can't learn to play bluegrass, but I believe "that bluegrass sound" is more difficult than just playing a musical interpretation of "Ya'll come." IMHO, Bluegrass is an attitude about music and life as well as a technique.

[nickster60]

Pack your bags son and head south. Living up there for the first 30 years of my life, you will find them Yankees don't really appreciate the South. They are a rather closed minded bunch and know very little about the south or the music. Southern music to them is Charlie Daniels, or Marshall Tucker. Lots of good blues players though.

[Tom Coletti]

Yankees don't really appreciate the South. They are a rather closed minded bunch...

South calling the North closed-minded...

I'd recommend that we change the subject immediately.

--Tom

[dusty miller]

[QUOTE=nickster60;1209306]Pack your bags son and head south. Living up there for the first 30 years of my life, you will find them Yankees don't really appreciate the South. They are a rather closed minded bunch and know very little about the south or the music. Southern music to them is Charlie Daniels, or Marshall Tucker. Lots of good blues players

EDIT

[sweed]

Thanks all, I appreciate the feedback so far and would like to keep everything clean, goodhearted and relevant so that we can continue our discussion proper here.

Right on with some of you guys - I forgot to mention that my jazz buddies believe that bluegrass is incredibly simple, I-IV-V and not much more to it, but my oh my it takes me 25 minutes to explain to them how to play the chords up to a fiddle tune and they continue to mess it up. But still they find bluegrass to be simple and they don't give it the time of day to properly practice the technique. Hence I've told them to buy some instructional material or something but they never do. So I guess, given that they won't study the proper technique, I was wondering if there might be a way to explain some of the concepts/techniques of bluegrass to them in a way that is somewhat relative to their jazz experience. I guess one example is that I can explain them the chord progression to a fiddle tune using the number system. Are there rhythmic concepts that I could translate into jazz language familiar to them?

Also, thanks for the input so far on the harmonies. I may take a look at the harmonybyear.com CD's, as I do a little ear-training with intervals on pianos and this looks like a good practical application of that style of training. Any more input appreciated!

thanks all!

[FLATROCK HILL]

Pack your bags son and head south. Living up there for the first 30 years of my life, you will find them Yankees don't really appreciate the South. They are a rather closed minded bunch and know very little about the south or the music. Southern music to them is Charlie Daniels, or Marshall Tucker. Lots of good blues players though.

Lemme git this straight. You lived "up there" for the first 30 years of your life. At some point you moved to the South. And you're calling who what?

[Justus True Waldron]

Wow, y'all need to calm down and get off this North/South thing. I've played bluegrass everywhere from Key West Florida to Prince Edward Island in Canada, and points in between, and never have I actually heard someone legitimately saying some of the stuff said in this thread. Sure the music changes slightly depending on where you are, but that doesn't mean you can't play bluegrass if you're not from the south. I love to play in the south because it just feels like the music is in the air, and believe me I've played some shows in TN and such where I was the only Yankee in the bunch, and yes I did learn some stuff. That doesn't mean you have to live in the south though, really the only reason for that is tradition - and what folks grew up listening to. I got into Del McCoury, James King, and J.D. Crowe at a young age even though I've lived near the Adirondack mountains in NY my whole life, and that was plenty enough education to start playing Bluegrass.

As for the OP's question, I think the best thing you can do is listen to the great bluegrass guitar players. It is a feeling thing, my dad plays Jazz, and he struggles to get it so he gave up trying. I also play jazz (clarinet), but since I grew up listening it came pretty naturally. I'm not all the great at explaining it mathematically, but if I had to try I'd say It's like a Boom - Ka Ka Ta thing, with the "Boom" being the bass note on the down beat, followed by the "Ka" on the higher strings on the up beat. This is where the mandolin chop will happen, then it happens again on the "ta" part. I almost think the "ka ka ta" is a sort of swung triplet, or a triplet with the first note dotted. This is where a lot of the variation and feeling comes in IMO. At any rate, the guitar and mandolin sort of play around each other, and the banjo fills in whatever is left. The bass hammers the down beat, along with the "boom" of the guitar. It's something you really have to listen to.

Where in NY are you? The city? Your profile says Western Mass. I live by Saratoga NY and work in Albany - not a ton of bluegrass up here but there is some, and some really good acts coming through. I'm trying to get more up here with my radio show, and the next couple months are looking real good. Of course once a year it's Grey Fox, and then everybody is in town. Frank Wakefield lives in my town, and the Gibson Brothers are from right next door and they brought in 4 IBMA awards this year, so you can't say we're totally in the dark around here. If you are in the city, Brooklyn is kind of turning into the new hot stop for acoustic music these days. Lots of great musicians moving there even in the last month. Keep in mind, a lot of them are playing more folk/progressive stuff as well, but most of them can play real bluegrass (and teach it). See if you or your friends can score some lessons with Michael Daves down in brooklyn - I know he teaches, I believe he was schooled in jazz at one point and I bet he could make a killer rhythm player out of just about anybody. Even a short lesson with your guitar friends should give them the basics.

And Swampy - I hear what you're saying about players lacking drive. The fact is New England is very big on folk, and you have to sort of wade through that. That said, there are plenty of real bluegrassers around here too. You need to get out more! You ever been across the border to the Jenny Brook festival in VT? Some of my favorite folks to pick with live in VT/NH/MA, you've just got to get out and find them.

In the end, to quote that line from Brakeman's Blues: "Portland Maine is just the same as Sunny Tennessee". Good luck Alex!

[Big Ed]

Put a Dawg, Bush ,Chris T, Benson, Bibey etc. CD in the player and suggest your jazz buddies play along. As far a getting the Bluegrass sound: If you were not born into it: Listen, listen, listen. Listen until your fingers hear the music.

[Bill Baldridge]

I can't tell if people are joking or not, and that is confused enough for me. I say shut this down if this is the bests we can do.