capturing that bluegrass sound

[Justus True Waldron]

Justus I have met a few strong pickers in New England, it's just difficult to find them, or they don't live in close proximity to one another, and like you said there is a strong folk element. Folks will say yeah I know that song and then proceed to do their best Kingston Trio version. I've been let down so many times by going to "bluegrass" jams

I know exactly what you mean... like I said in my last post good Bluegrass up here requires a lot more driving. It's unfortunate, but a fact of life - there are just less of us here. It's too bad, but the more bluegrass things I go to the more people I meet. I was up in Maine at a festival last month and met a guy from my very town back home. Same thing happened in Massachusetts a couple weeks ago. However if I never got out to those festivals, I would have never me them because there are no bluegrass events in my town where I would have met them. I'm trying to do my part with my radio show and my bluegrass band and friends I know in the business, but as with anything it's slow going. So I agree with you, and I agree with Nick about the prevalence of Bluegrass in the south as well. Whether it was actually said or not, I've mostly been reacting to the idea that you can't learn bluegrass unless you're in the South, and that nobody picks anything real up here. You've just got to dig. In the South you might not have to dig much at all, but wherever you are getting into the music requires effort, and most importantly the will do learn it and play it.

[mandocrucian]

Yes.. I think you should capture the bluegrass sound and then transport it to its intended residence location within the Cafe's SonicZoo http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/fo...ospel-Variants

Given it's rural American deep south origins, I think it would be prudent to contract someone who is culturally expert in this variety of removal, rather than some Australian crocodile hunter (no doubt, named "Bruce"), or David Attenborough or the Orkin Man.......

[grassrootphilosopher]

Listening and reading. Both great ways of learning new music, and there are folks that favor one or the other. But I don't think being good at one excludes the other. The reason some of those who read well are unable to learn by listening is that they haven't been shown, figured out or practiced it.

Two skills that are needed, and ignoring either one will limit a musician. There is probably a tendency to rely on the skills you have. We all like to stay with what we are good at. But other than that I don't think there is anything in being able to read that causes one to struggle learning by ear. Just like I don't think learning by ear makes learning to read any more difficult.

I think bluegrass, like any other genre, has to be experienced to get it right. Same with IT. I know more than a few good players, good readers, who can take a fiddle tune from a book on sight, but play correctly instead of right. Until you attend a good Irish session and listen to great IT musicians, it is hard to get the right rhythm and emphasis...

I agree. I remember a post by (or about) the late John McGann that touched on the subject. As far as I remember the essence of the post was that "back in the days" bluegrass players played by ear and jazz players played by notation (I remember the great documentary about the incomparable Thelonious Monk [Producer Clint Eastwood, Title: Straight No Chaser] where the musicians allways have some kind of notation in front of them). Since then the limitations of "just" doing the one or the other have been overcome by younger musicians like Sierra Hull (notably) for instance.

Learning by listening and playing with others can never be underestimated. You talk about IT (my initial thought was "information technology"...) and yes playing with original musicians makes a difference. I learned bluegrass by playing along with Bill Monroe records until at times I sounded like Edd Mayfield (one of my favorite bluegrass rythm guitar players). On the other hand I never seemed to get a hang on the Country Gentlemen´s rythm until many years later.

Mainly, you have to start somewhere. When I started I was unable to read music. I only learned via listening. Then I started taping (one guitar solo of maybe 15 seconds recorded in repetitive parts on a 45 minute cassette band, my first one being the Doc Watson Will The Circle Be Unbroken guitar solo on the first Nitty Gritty Dirt Band Will The Circle Album). I learned the solo and how to solo by again and again playing with the cassette tape. Then I started playing (the solo) with the recording, then I started playing with others etc.

Really? What kind of jazz musicians are you playing with? Jazz is a music of improvisation just as much or even more than bluegrass, and to do that right requires an ear. Yes I have met some "jazz players" who are very stuck on reading heads and following charts and transcribing solos, but those aren't the guys I want to play with or listen too. I know a lot of folks who play both jazz and bluegrass. My friend Brennen Ernst for example plays killer Don Reno style banjo for Karl Sheflet & The Big Country Show, and he also plays a mean swing guitar for the Solomon Douglas Quartet. Oh and he's from the South, for whatever that's worth. In fact I find that the further you dig in early bluegrass and Trad Jazz the more similarities you find, and the easier it is to cross over. You have to listen to really play either.

The jazz-people I had in mind are some of the ignorant folks I talked about. In a jazz session they snubbed me when I came with my mandolin (trusty old Strad-O-Lin in that session) and did not have a jack to hook it up with the P.A. I told them that if they knew what they were doing they would be able to amplify an acoustic instrument so that it would be able to blend in the jazz mix of an electric guitar, a bass-fiddle and an unamplified drum set. That - and the part that my playing didn´t suck - settled it. Another time I tried unsuccessfully to make a jazz player (professor now in a quite prestigious school) to turn down his amplifier from a level that made shouting at each other allmost impossible for the musical dynamics sake. He tried - stupid - to argue, that it was the acoustics of the room. Whenever I think about this incident I still laugh a sad laugh... Unfortunately they are still stuck on their ideas. Indeed those are not the people I would want to play with.

I agree that "real" jazz players are a highly educated bunch who take the best of two worlds, reading music and playing by ear, and they turn it into great music. I think that these kind of people have no problem whatsoever to learn a new musical language like blugrass.

But I guess we´re not talking about ace players.

It is not all that easy to cross genres even if you are truly interested in it. Most players I truly want to play the music they choose and dive headfirst into it. Your jazz playing friends may not really be all that into it.

Many years ago I attended an old time jam in New York City and there was this excellent jazz bassist who showed up. In some respects his musicianship was way above anyone else in the room, but he truly did not understand old time music and basically was a real jam buster. Luckily he left early that evening but it did ruin it for others.

The ultimate advice repeated mentioned above is to listen to lots of bluegrass. If the jazz guys are into it get them to do the same, maybe pick a few tunes to start and work on those.

I think that you have to be a lot better than them in order to educate them well. In my old band I was the boss wolf when it came to aranging and telling people what and how to play. I was told by my old band buddies that when they rehearsed without me they would at times ask themselves what I would do or say. It flattered me of course but it showed me that at least I knew what I was doing and that I was able to tell people how things are done well. In my newer project my friend has been singing on a more advanced level than I. Yet I was able to grasp the concept of singing harmony earlier which lead to some tension until we had a workshop with the great Sue Thompson (www.harmonybyear.com). Since then there is no more disent.

If you are not on a musical level where you can clearly show your musical partners what to do, I think that it might have to be a group experience to listen to the music a lot, talk music a lot and probably experiment with the music. Keeping an open mind is inevitable as well as doing your research. Nowadays you have a wealth of information easily available at no cost via the internet.

The site that mentiones the Tom Barnwell article is quite good.

[Timbofood]

Ok, the whole civil war of music has been beaten to death now, N v S aside. It is largely a southern music and if you need to teach people about a style of music it is important to have a bit of knowledge about its history. I have said it so many times before, "If you do not know where you came from, how can you tell where you are going?
My suggestion to the OP is keep on exposing these friends to the early stuff then fold in more contemporary musicians. After doing a show a kid asked who he should listen to, my bass player(also picks mandolin) recommended Dan Tyminsky, I told him that was fine but to listen to the OLD guys. A musician can become frustrated by trying to emulate the picker who has been at it for years.
A rookie pianist does not start with Rachminov but with basics,Chopin etudes, they are "Study" pieces. In most base form, might be better to learn "Gold Rush" before "Rawhide".
Keep at it pal, they will learn or not. Then you get to start all over with a new bunch of pickers.
I have a lot of friends who play jazz, can't get them to fired up about this bluegrass though. To each, his own is about all I can say

[catmandu2]

Keep at it pal, they will learn or not.

Yep

Music is a highly sophisticated form of expression that is difficult to minimize the significance of "feel." The best musicians may or may not feel a given form (genre/style). Time is everything: time cannot be taught--it is felt. Harmonic and stylistic vernacular may be acquired through didacticism--not so with time. A jazz musician can swing, but this is not a factor in bluegrass, obviously. Licks can be acquired, but to deploy the language effectively (musically, in context)—other subtle factors are at play. Most spoken language isn't primarily dependent on time and sonic inflection. Music is.

[tmsweeney]

While I always recommend learning to read standard notation to any musician, I don't think it is requirement to play well, regardless of style, might be some limitations with classical and jazz if you can't read standard notation, but I would never let anyone believe not being able to read would inhibit their ability to learn and play, regardless of the style or genre.
I know a lot of great players who never learned to read.
I will say for Monroe stuff reading helps me know which notes to play, but it does almost nothing for me as how to execute the piece.
I really have to listen to others play it to get a feel of what Monroe intended.

[William Smith]

All the guitar players need to do to sound more "bluegrass" is to quit strumming and alternate the bass notes in their chords.That'll drive it.

[JeffD]

While I always recommend learning to read standard notation to any musician, I don't think it is requirement to play well, regardless of style, might be some limitations with classical and jazz if you can't read standard notation, but I would never let anyone believe not being able to read would inhibit their ability to learn and play, regardless of the style or genre..

Of course it does. It limits you to playing stuff others are playing or that has been recorded. There are oceans of music from all the world through out all time that is denied those that don't read.

[Timbofood]

This has always been such an "aural" and oral tradition in this music. I think there is great value in the shared experience of teaching or learning over the use of tablature or even standard notation. I am not fond of tab and do not read standard notation not that I can't I just am not good at it consequently, I don't read musoic. Happy for all you who do! With respect to tmsweeny, it does indeed tell you what the notes are but, as you point out, does not teach the dynamics. Those must be learned through listening and development of techinque. This is an interesting thread indeed, time for some more coffee or popcorn! And everyone is being nice!

[bjewell]

I need to say something here: This notion that bluegrass is a "deep south" music is incorrect. Kentucky is below the Mason-Dixon line but is in no way the so-called "deep south." Southern Ohio -- above the line -- has had a solid contribution to the genre (I used that word for the eddicated) and Bean Blossom is in Indiana. Of course there are pickers from all over the south. The roots of bluegrass are much deeper in other soil than mere geography.

As for jazz -- true jazz -- most of it is improvisation on a tune or song that has been played via written scores. A big band or a combo will of course use a score to get everyone up to speed but when the guy with the licorice stick stands up to trade with an alto player, its all coming from between the ears and from the heart. That's true jazz, alway has been. It's no different than what a fiddler is doing although you might quibble about acceptable scales, modes and time signatures in BG.

[Timbofood]

I should have said regional, point taken.
Didn't say deep though, Southern Californian.

[Markus]

I think I can make a new suggestion to the Original Poster. Sometimes you have to play music that the other folks know/like even if it's a bit different than your own favorite genre. I'm just a casual picker, but when I'm playing with my friends, it's different than playing at a bluegrass jam where everyone has been working on that (broadly defined) genre. Maybe you're better off either starting a duo or trio of like minded folks -- or else staying with your pals and seeking some hybrid ground that'll be less frustrating.

I completely agree. In this group, maybe your best bet is to play something in between and learn to be a great group player, to use dynamics, to play each song as it's own composition. Perhaps try to work in some instrumentals or more newgrassy stuff, but I am of the opinion that playing any genre with good players can improve your musicianship across the board.

I would wonder if you're better off tracking down a local bluegrass association, trying to find a couple picking partners to satisfy your BG desires while freeing you to play other things in this/other groups. Maybe eventually some of these guys will gain an appreciation and bring some tunes to the table, but I have gotten the most out of groups where other people are bringing songs and I don't see these guys bringing bluegrass to the table. I would take what they bring to the table and learn to play it as it should - perhaps they will return the favor, otherwise you learned something new and likely got a little better of a player.

There's a lot of things in playing music which cross-pollinate. I would keep playing bluegrass some with these guys, but let it range a bit as you look for some steeped-in-bluegrass players to pick with. I know I've gotten a lot out of playing in groups that played two different genres and that every improvement in how I play with one group makes me better with every group I'm in.

Just my 2 cents.

[Alex Orr]

A few thoughts...

I grew up in Eastern NC and was never exposed to bluegrass. Just because the music came from the South doesn't mean it has always been a constant ubiquitous presence everywhere and courses through every Southerner's veins from the moment of birth. I honestly didn't get into bluegrass until moving to Washington, DC. There were certainly more open jams up here than when I lived in Atlanta, deep in the South, back in the late '90s.

It's also worth noting that many of the greatest players in bluegrass were neither born in the South, nor even spent much time there while becoming legends. Then again, maybe Peter Rowan, David Grisman, Chris Thile, Bill Keith, Tony Rice, Larry Rice, Wyatt Rice, Jerry Douglas, Joe Val, Richard Greene, Mark O'Connor, Mike Marshall, Peter Wernick, Butch Baldassari, etc... don't really "get" bluegrass, all being born and raised in the midwest, west coast, or northeast. I won't even get into the issue of whether Akira Otsuka is capable of understanding bluegrass.

Now, to the OP's actual issue... I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your guitar player is being too strummy. The "boom chuck" is very simple in nature, but requires the right feel to actually make it work, and without the right feel, you have no drive...no groove...and the whole sound is lacking and not very "bluegrass". In some sense, it's actually more about really punching out the bass notes and the runs than it is about the strum, but most guitar pickers just don't get that. Most guitar pickers are strummers, and they have a horrible time getting the right feel for bluegrass, even when they think they're playing it just right. Again, very simple in concept, and even in terms of mechanical execution, but quite challenging to get the right feel. I've played with guitarists dabbling in bluegrass (often rock guys) who swore they were playing "correct" bluegrass rhythm, but they weren't doing it with the right feel, drive, and emphasis, and it just sounded weak. Despite being excellent musicians (way better than me) they couldn't get the feel, and couldn't even hear that they were not playing it right...despite "technically" playing it right.

Also, a banjo player who is not playing it right is going to really hurt the sound. You can have a nice bluegrass band without a banjo, but if you have a guy who knows how to really drive the sound, you are going to have a serious upgrade to your sound.

[Mike Bunting]

Mike Bunting has it !. You really do need to listen to LOTS of Bluegrass music simply to understand what's going on,which instrument plays what,when & how. Listen to the old,original recordings of Bill Monroe,Flatt & Scruggs,The Stanly Brothers,Jim & Jesse McReynolds - everybody !.They all have their own sound & blending of instruments.
When i had my own band over here in the UK in 1963,there were very few Bluegrass recordings on general release,so,if 3 people (my band at the time) had any Bluegrass LP's,they were very likely the same ones. When we got together for a first time practice,we all knew totally which instrument played what & when, & we just copied the originals,sometimes with our mandolin player doing both the fiddle & mandolin parts,or i'd play a banjo intro.instead of a fiddle intro.,but the basic structure of the tunes / songs we played was as close to the original as we could get it. So my advice would be to choose a few songs that you all like,& simply copy the original as closely as you can get it.That way you get to know who plays what & when. There's nothing wrong with 'copying',& for most of us that's how we got to where we are. After you've learned the basics of the Bluegrass sound & how it's put together,only then (IMHO) can you come up with your own 'blend' of the sound,but learn some of the 'classic' tunes & songs first & get them under your skin,
Ivan

Well, I completely agree with Ivan!

[jazzman13]

Now, to the OP's actual issue... I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your guitar player is being too strummy. The "boom chuck" is very simple in nature, but requires the right feel to actually make it work, and without the right feel, you have no drive...no groove...and the whole sound is lacking and not very "bluegrass". In some sense, it's actually more about really punching out the bass notes and the runs than it is about the strum, but most guitar pickers just don't get that. Most guitar pickers are strummers, and they have a horrible time getting the right feel for bluegrass, even when they think they're playing it just right. Again, very simple in concept, and even in terms of mechanical execution, but quite challenging to get the right feel. I've played with guitarists dabbling in bluegrass (often rock guys) who swore they were playing "correct" bluegrass rhythm, but they weren't doing it with the right feel, drive, and emphasis, and it just sounded weak. Despite being excellent musicians (way better than me) they couldn't get the feel, and couldn't even hear that they were not playing it right...despite "technically" playing it right.

Alex is pretty well spot on here.
The bass notes are very important in the bluegrass guitar sound - and it's quite challenging to accent the bass notes instead of the strum.

I actually come from a very similar background to the OP - I've completed a jazz degree and now have transitioned into playing almost exclusively bluegrass. I also live in Western Australia and I'd bet you a huge amount of money that there's less young guys down under like me that are into bluegrass than there are in NY haha! It's an old-time wasteland out here.

The big thing that I learned when I was trying to get a handle on bluegrass is that it has a totally different language to jazz. In musical terms, I'd define language as the collection of genre specific licks, phrases, voicings etc that are appropriate for a certain style of music.

When I was learning jazz language, I looked to Wes Montgomery, Charlie Parker, Louis Armstrong, Oscar Peterson etc - transcribed them and started to analyse and dissect their note choices, rhythms, scale choices etc to develop my own language over standard progressions (eg ii-V-I).

What I found when I went to play bluegrass was that the hundreds of hours I'd spent learning the jazz language was no longer applicable because bluegrass uses a different language.

So... I'm currently in the process of transcribing and analysing Thile, Flatt, Scruggs, Monroe, Watson etc in order to grasp the bluegrass language.
As I progress, I'm fairly confident there will be a point where I can start to borrow bits from the jazz language and create some really interesting improvisations but at this point (3 years from when I started), I'm still trying to get a handle on the bluegrass language.

You're lucky that you have several friends of your age that are interested in bluegrass - I had the same luck in that I had 4 friends who were learning at the same time as me. We learned our instruments and we learned the language together and improved as we went along.

Without wanting to blow my own horn too much, if you're interested in seeing where we got to in the space of about 2 years, here's a clip from a year ago and I reckon we've improved a bunch since then too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOLMh0gt9Co

Best of luck with finding that sound!

[AlanN]

your guitar player is being too strummy. The "boom chuck" is very simple in nature, but requires the right feel to actually make it work, and without the right feel, you have no drive...no groove...and the whole sound is lacking and not very "bluegrass". In some sense, it's actually more about really punching out the bass notes and the runs than it is about the strum, but most guitar pickers just don't get that. Most guitar pickers are strummers, and they have a horrible time getting the right feel for bluegrass, even when they think they're playing it just right. .

This is it. I was in a band where the guitar man strummed with all the same attack, on every number, never let up. Was awful. I tried to show him the way, got the response "nobody else tells me I am doing it wrong." Clueless.

Last night's jam had a similar thing. There was an older fiddle man who knows tunes. We did St. Anne's Reel. As simple as they come for tune structure. The guitar man couldn't hear the changes, I had to call out the chords during it, which I hate doing. But, if you don't know it, Ok, fair enough (mind you, this guy has been 'playing bluegrass' his whole life.) But, it's not just the chords, it's how to connect them with leading runs, bass notes, how to quiet down and come in, etc. He has no feel for that, and to teach it, on the fly, is a horrorshow.

As someone said, either you got it or you don't. And I can tell in literally 5 seconds which way it is.

[nickster60]

When I first started playing bluegrass there many songs I didn't know. I would position myself across from a good guitarist and read his chords. I read music so the eye to finger connection works pretty well. The jams I go to are public jams and there are always many guitars. It always seems there are a couple of guys just flailing away, usually on the wrong chord. They eventually figure out they have it wrong and try to change and just keep playing away,usually on the wrong chord.

[AlanN]

We have the same jokers here, especially in the larger jams. Why they bang away on the wrong chords is beyond me. If I don't know a number, I won't play until I get it. To hit the wrong chord is worse than not playing.

[Markus]

We have the same jokers here, especially in the larger jams. Why they bang away on the wrong chords is beyond me. If I don't know a number, I won't play until I get it. To hit the wrong chord is worse than not playing.

While I dislike this, I really don't like people who spend the entire song practicing their break [quietly, or so they think]. They're playing over the vocals and even over other breaks, they might think that no one hears but if you're near and have your ears wide open you can't miss it. Distracting as heck, it's hard to play responsive backup if the guy next to you is just practicing for his solo.

I'm not sure which is a deeper level of hell, playing the wrong chords or constant practicing for the solo.

[Tobin]

I'm not sure which is a deeper level of hell, playing the wrong chords or constant practicing for the solo.

I like to alternate between the two, just to keep it interesting for those around me.

[AlanN]

I do catch myself, as my solo approaches, sometimes finding the note/lick to blast off from. I do it *very* quietly and off to the side. Never would I play a whole solo over another's, or overun the vocals with it. That is just wrong and rude.

[Mark Wilson]

South calling the North closed-minded...

I'd recommend that we change the subject immediately.

--Tom

Nice. You made his point better than he did.

[Tom Coletti]

Nice. You made his point better than he did.

As a Californian, I fail to see how I proved any point in regards to the lingering north-south bickering. The cafe just isn't the place for discussing that, as per posting guidelines.

--Tom

[ralph johansson]

This is it. I was in a band where the guitar man strummed with all the same attack, on every number, never let up. Was awful. I tried to show him the way, got the response "nobody else tells me I am doing it wrong." Clueless.

Last night's jam had a similar thing. There was an older fiddle man who knows tunes. We did St. Anne's Reel. As simple as they come for tune structure. The guitar man couldn't hear the changes, I had to call out the chords during it, which I hate doing. But, if you don't know it, Ok, fair enough (mind you, this guy has been 'playing bluegrass' his whole life.) But, it's not just the chords, it's how to connect them with leading runs, bass notes, how to quiet down and come in, etc. He has no feel for that, and to teach it, on the fly, is a horrorshow.

As someone said, either you got it or you don't. And I can tell in literally 5 seconds which way it is.

I'm happy to see the emphasis on the guitar here. When I pointed out the importance of the guitar in another thread I was clueless, so I feel vindicated here. In my BG days I found that many aspiring guitar players overlooked the importance of the upper string chords between the bass notes, felt rather than heard on record. So there really was no bounce in their backup. In today's BG I don't hear much in the way of bass figures, as you hear in Rodney Dillard, Edd Mayfield, or Benny Williams. There are live recordings where Mayfield sounds a bit like Roy Harvey and other oldtime guitarists.

My first Bluegrass LP was Bluegrass Ramble with Bill Monroe. On Danny Boy Benny Williams plays some very elaborate guitar with connecting figures and inversions and whatever and I thought that's what BG guitar is about and went to work. Today I acknowledge the BG influence by incorporating these ideas in my playing which cannot really be termed Bluegrass. On mando hangout, where I post as Piotr, you can hear my treatment of Watson Blues (unfortunately slightly out of tune). On flatpicker hangout I've posted Crazy and I believe the guitar backup is in part BG inspired (albeit in Bb without a capo).

Re St Anne's Reel at a jam you would at least have to clarify the chord in the third bar - is it G or A7 (I much prefer the latter!).

[Beanzy]

The 3 part harmonies are a great thing to work up.
Strike the key chord 1, 3, 5 and give each of your singers one of those notes as their singing note, then take it from there.

Doesn't matter where you were born if you expose yourself to it long enough and often enough you'll become infected with the Bluegrass affliction. It's incurable, enjoy it.

In terms of what to translate for them. Try relating it to gypsy jazz and highlight the differences.
For a start they know how to pump a note, well that's practically a chop without so much enthusiasm. Now they've just got to thin things out a bit. Rather than strum-pump strum pump on the 1234 they need to Thud-chop if they're going for the on -beat. Without a bass you're going to have to get at least one of the guitars right on the 1 3 (Thump gap Thump gap) and do all the 2 4 chopping yourself or maybe see if one of them can get a Thump- up Thump-up without reverting to the jazz pumping of the beat.
Next explain that it's nobody's job to get too intereting until it's their turn for a solo. They'll get it, as most good jazz compers know that but just need reminding. If they need it more interesting , they play faster not stuffing more notes in.