Sweeney's Buttermilk, Chord Variations

[Tom Coletti]

Sweeney's Buttermilk has been puzzling me... It seems like every other YouTube video has different variations on the chords. This was the first one that I stumbled upon without chords:



Then this was the first that I found with chords:



Then this, (starts at 2:34) with different chords.



I was just wondering if one of them is more prevalent/preferred over the other, or if rechording/reharmonization is fairly common in Irish Trad.

Thanks,

--Tom

[Dave Hanson]

Did you mean a different accompaniment ? the lead [ melody ] instruments are not playing chords.

Dave H

[Tom Coletti]

Did you mean a different accompaniment ? the lead [ melody ] instruments are not playing chords.

Dave H

Yes, the accompaniment. I've learned the melody on mandolin, though I'm stuck in figuring out which chord progression I should be following with a rhythm instrument for a two-track recording. Also, in case I end up playing this at a jam, I don't want to be playing the "wrong" chords compared to the rest of the people providing the backup.

--Tom

[foldedpath]

Sweeney's Buttermilk has been puzzling me... It seems like every other YouTube video has different variations on the chords.

Ah yes, welcome to Irish traditional music, where the structure of the melody is fixed (mostly) and the backup is improvised.


That's the reverse of what happens in Americana music genres; a result of the way the music developed primarily as pure melody, and accompaniment is a much later, tacked-on development. So it has to be improvised by each backer, and naturally people will make different choices in chords and timing of chord changes. There are infinite ways to play "wrong" chords... outside the mode of the tune, or with bad rhythm... but there are also no fixed "right" chords for a tune like there are in, say, Bluegrass. Just a range of possibilities. Each backer will have different ideas of where and when to change chords, and the changes won't always fall right on the bar lines, like they tend to do in Americana music styles.

That's why many Irish sessions try to limit the number of backers to just one guitar player at a time, or one guitar plus one bouzouki if they can work around each other. More than one or two backers at a session tends to be a train wreck, so I wouldn't worry too much about knowing the "right" chords if you're playing Sweeney's Buttermilk at a session. Just play the melody, since you know it, and let whoever is backing work out the chords. If you're the only one playing backup, just let your ear lead you to the choice and timing of chords. You can find chord charts all over the Internet for Irish trad standards, but I think it's much better to develop your ear and learn how to improvise backup.

FWIW, I play guitar backup on Sweeney's when my S.O. plays it on her fiddle, and I think the chords I use are something like Bm, A, F#m with a few single note lines connecting chords here and there. I'm not as "busy" a guitar player as the one in that second clip -- partly from lack of skill, and also personal preference -- so I'd probably clash with that guitar if playing at the same time.

P.S. Sweeney's is a great tune, but personally I wouldn't play the melody with as much bouncy swing as that first mandolin video above. That's an approach I hear from some OldTime players who get into Irish music, or maybe it's just the preference of that particular player. At any rate, I usually hear reels played with a more steady pulse like the second video clip. Save the swing for hornpipes... just my opinion.

[Tom Coletti]

Thanks for the great info. As an ex-bluegrasser, the compete reversal of the improv is an interesting concept, but one that I may actually enjoy more, since I tend to find some bluegrass solos to be too removed from the melody and the chords too rigid/lacking in variety. Given that, I may decide to come up with my own progression for the accompaniment, perhaps drawing a bit from each different version I find.

P.S. Sweeney's is a great tune, but personally I wouldn't play the melody with as much bouncy swing as that first mandolin video above. That's an approach I hear from some OldTime players who get into Irish music, or maybe it's just the preference of that particular player. At any rate, I usually hear reels played with a more steady pulse like the second video clip. Save the swing for hornpipes... just my opinion.

Yeah, the first version of Sweeney's does have some bounce to it, especially in the beginning, but it seems like once it gets up to speed, it levels out to a more standard rhythm for the most part. Perhaps he kept the slight trace of swing to keep it lighter and a bit more airy, or to give certain pronunciation to the rhythm, but it's still noticeably different from his hornpipes. He has a good-sized selection of reels, jigs, and hornpipes (on both mandolin and tenor banjo), and it has been a great resource for me so far.

--Tom

[whistler]

in case I end up playing this at a jam, I don't want to be playing the "wrong" chords compared to the rest of the people providing the backup.

This is why it is generally advisable only to have one accompanist at a time in a session. As foldedpath says, if you know the tune and there is already someone playing chords, why would you want to play chords anyway? And when you come up against tunes you don't know, whilst there may be a temptation to do something all the time, there's nothing wrong with sitting back and listening.

As for your recording, you can choose whichever version of the accompaniment you like best, combine elements of both of them or make up your own entirely - it's up to you. Assuming you're using a digital multitrack device with zillions of tracks available, you could try out several different sets of chords, listen back to each of them in turn and decide which you prefer.

[Tom Coletti]

Lots of good info here. I'm still fairly new to ITM and the general session etiquette, so this will definitely help to keep things working smoothly. I was also concerned about the accompaniment because I more often than not just jam casually with a couple of jazz/classical guitarists who are used to sharing the duties of melody and rhythm when just playing around. As for the recording, I've decided upon my own progression by messing around with a 12-string, and since my primary instruments are mandolin and Dobro, I'm going for a sort of Transatlantic Sessions kind of thing. Learning melodic positions, ornamentation, etc., for reels, jigs, hornpipes, and slow airs on a squareneck resonator has been a recent interest of mine due to a seemingly sparse amount of Irish Dobro content outside of Jerry Douglas' work and a few other things here and there.

--Tom

[M.Marmot]

. As for the recording, I've decided upon my own progression by messing around with a 12-string, and since my primary instruments are mandolin and Dobro, I'm going for a sort of Transatlantic Sessions kind of thing. Learning melodic positions, ornamentation, etc., for reels, jigs, hornpipes, and slow airs on a squareneck resonator has been a recent interest of mine due to a seemingly sparse amount of Irish Dobro content outside of Jerry Douglas' work and a few other things here and there.

--Tom

You'll certainly raise a few eyebrows coming into a session with a dobro - beyond Mr. Douglas i can't say i know, offhand, of anyone else who plays dobro trad.

[Tom Coletti]

You'll certainly raise a few eyebrows coming into a session with a dobro - beyond Mr. Douglas i can't say i know, offhand, of anyone else who plays dobro trad.

Heh, I would definitely hesitate to bring one of those to a session... for now, at least.

It presents a very interesting challenge as far as access to the fretboard and movement between notes. I usually can work with standard tuning or just the use of a capo (I've figured out Sweeney's with a capo on the second fret, since the Am positions give me a more effective use of open strings and better chordings than Bm) though I may experiment and see if there are alternate tunings which would give me better leverage over certain melodies in certain keys. Jerry uses open D a lot, which is great for a rich low end, but G tuning works perfectly for most things in D already, so I haven't had the need to change tunings a whole lot.

I've found a couple of videos:

Irish Washerwoman:



A slip jig:



Banish Misfortune on a very unique slide guitar (starts around 2:16):



--Tom

[M.Marmot]

Aye, some nice stuff but none of those fellas are actually playing in a session - it'd be nice to hear something being played in less controlled circumstances...



like on top of a rock.

[Tom Coletti]

Aye, some nice stuff but none of those fellas are actually playing in a session - it'd be nice to hear something being played in less controlled circumstances...



like on top of a rock.

Nice! I have yet to find any full session stuff outside of the Transatlantic ones, though.

--Tom

[Tom Coletti]

Finally decided upon a chord progression, which I ended up applying to a 12-string in drop D, capo 2nd, as follows:

A Part
(Bm Bm Bm A / Bm Bm Esus4 E / D D Eadd4 Eadd4 / A A F#m7 Bm ) x2

B Part
(Bm Bm A A / Bm Bm Esus4 E / D D Eadd4 Eadd4 / A A6 F#m7 Bm ) x2

It just so happened that the A & B part of Sweeney' sounded good with essentially the same progression, with only a couple of change between them. My Dobro was without strings at the time, but I did get to try out my nifty new RC Custom lap steel for a bit of ambient fill.



--Tom

[EdSherry]

Pete Grant (a fine pedal steel/Dobro player from Auburn, CA) plays ITM on a six- or eight-string Dobro. He's played with Irish piper Paddy Keenan quite a lot. There's a YouTube video of him playing with Mick Moloney.