Country and Grass - Do They Mix?

[AlanN]

The recent AJ thread got me thinking on this, and maybe parts were touched on, but I'd be curious to hear of any examples where this could work. And if you think it's beating a dead horse, feel free to ignore.

The Osbornes of course touched on country stuff in their day, but that was more of widening of the band instrumentation for perhaps commercial gain and radio play.

Jimmy Martin surely comes to mind.

And Ricky Skaggs has done some of this - think Hwy 40 Blues -, but to my ears, that was more of a country thing with banjo and mandolin (a *very* tasty mandolin solo, btw.)

The Lost & Found put out a CD called A Ride Through The Country. Done up, of course, with all acoustic bluegrass instruments, this recording is a gem. Mostly classic country numbers, the band at the time was blessed with lead vocalist Barry Berrier, he of the low-down, deep country voice. Banjo and mandolin were low-key, no breakdowns or hot picking, just supportive laid-back half-breaks and such. Bluegrass Unlimited gave it a huge Thumbs-Up, as I recall.

Aubrey Haynie, on one of his solo works, has a vocalist sing a solo number called Can I Get An Amen, in a very country-fied voice. Again, this works splendidly, as the guy sings it low and plaintive, with low-key backing. And no mistaking it for grass, yet it has country appeal.

My point is I feel a supportive band can back a country-tinged vocalist to create a rather unique mix of both things - bluegrass with a country feel (as opposed to the flip side). After all, they are kissin cousins...

[FLATROCK HILL]

My point is I feel a supportive band can back a country-tinged vocalist to create a rather unique mix of both things - bluegrass with a country feel (as opposed to the flip side). After all, they are kissin cousins...

I agree 100%. I grew up on (what I call) traditional 'country-music' and love it. I was also exposed to bluegrass from an early age and have learned to love and appreciate it as well. The mixing of the two has resulted, and can continue to result in some really great stuff.

(Not to start another AJ brawl, but this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YddWNLOT2JY is a good example in my book)

The resulting "unique mix" may (will) not please the purists on either side. That's ok too. The pure stuff will still exist.

[doc holiday]

Red Allen comes to mind. & there is more than one George Jones song that would sound fine bluegrass style

[allenhopkins]

Jim & Jesse did some "country" recordings, including one of Chuck Berry songs (there's an odd country/rock/bluegrass fusion), but those weren't their strongest work, IMHO.

Lotsa country singers have made single bluegrass recordings -- Patty Loveless, Tom T. Hall, Skeeter Davis, Dolly Parton et. al. -- with varied success.

[grassrootphilosopher]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Blue-Grass.../dp/B0002WZSOO
"Love´s Gonna Live Here"

or

http://www.amazon.com/Treasures-Unto...mike+auldridge
"Driving Nails In My Coffin"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkXJ2FTAZC4
"Another Town" by Tom T. Hall, lead singer with a low voice and now a country music "sideman".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so2oQ9iuCFs
"Hickory Wind" (made popular by the Birds on the "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" LP) sung by a major country singer


I think that when Bill Monroe´s daughter is allowed to sing a country song together with a bluegrass band... Where´s the problem?

Musically the sky is the limit. If we allow Newgrass, Spacegrass, Dawg Music, Klezmergrass (in the way of Andy Statman), Jazzgrass (Mike Marshal), Thile-Music (whatever you may call pop-music played by a bluegrass band) and so forth, why should there be any reluctance to let country musicians play bluegrass also?

The other day I watched a youtube clip of Roger Blackmore play his licks on an acoustic guitar. Why not hard rock on bluegrass instruments.

I think that there is a fear that country artists will either water down bluegrass music - in the way the Nashville sound watered down early country music - or that it will give bluegrass a hick image.

In Germany it seems to me that the majority of German bluegrass musicians have a strong bias against country music. They do not want to be identified with the country image that they see as truck drivers, rhinestone cowboys etc. that they think drink beer all the time and listen to uninteligent music. Given the history of country music I find this kind of (German) viewpoint very shortsighted.

The aforementioned examples involve bluegrass musicians that went country as well as country songs done in bluegrass style. In another thread I asked where would you draw the line? I did not get an answer. What makes a bluegrass singer? What makes a bluegrass song.

[Herbm55]

The recent AJ thread got me thinking on this, and maybe parts were touched on, but I'd be curious to hear of any examples where this could work.....After all, they are kissin cousins...

I've enjoyed Patty Loveless projects where country and bluegrass seem to mix well, "Mountain Soul 2" comes to mind. The recent Dierks Bentley CD mixes country and bluegrass much better than I expected. I'm sure opinions vary. In fact, it seems like DB might be as good or better at bluegrass than AJ. Time for some popcorn.....

[AlanN]

Some cogent examples given, thanks. I had forgotten about Dobro man Mike, obviously a proponent of that sound. Dolly, J&J, too. Reno and Smiley were in that ball park, also.

I guess I go back to a Bill Monroe quote, where he was asked about 'hot mandolin styles' in bluegrass. He was ok with it, as long as it 'didn't override the bluegrass'. That would be my thing with a country influx, too.

[grassrootphilosopher]

why not add this: http://www.allmusic.com/album/big-mo...e-mw0000962085

Bruce Hornsby, the Dixie Chicks, Patty Loveless, Charlie Daniels, John Fogerty, Steve Wariner and let´s not forget one of the leading country music back up vocal bands the Whites...

I don´t think that you could just limit the opinion to "a country musician" singing a song backed by a bluegrass band. That sounds like the singer sticks out like a sore thumb. The examples that are being mentioned here show that the singers are not subpar (though I think that Del and the boys are doing the vocals better than Dierks Bentley; still enjoyable).

[grassrootphilosopher]

...ok with it, as long as it 'didn't override the bluegrass'.

Well said!

[M.Marmot]

I'll admit, right from the off, that i don't understand the seemingly constant need for Bluegrass fans to point out just what, in their opinion, counts as true Bluegrass.

I also don't understand the 'us versus them' refrain that often flares up in the Bluegrass threads here or the need for exclusionist policies... but that's passion for you - it often goes beyond explanation.

In the terms of the current thread i'd like to offer up Steve Earle's 'The Mountain' which he recorded with the Del McCoury band and also The Steeldrivers who now that it think on it would not be too far away from the sound of the Mountain.

I don't know for sure if they count for this topic, but there you have it.

By the by, i have seen The Mountain bring quite a few people around to appreciating Bluegrass.

[Willie Poole]

In my band we play quite a few of the traditional country songs, they seem to fit but I am not sure any of this "modern" country music would fit into bluegrass...

As far as a singer having a country or bluegrass voice Charlie Waller recorded a whole album of country type songs without a banjo just so he might get an invite to the Grand Ole Opry, which he did get, but they showed up with the regular bluegrass band...Charlie had a voice that would fit either bluegrass or country much like Barry Barrier....

[M.Marmot]

So, apart from the different voice range, the use (or non-use) banjo is one of the big differences between country and bluegrass?

I had not realised that, but a quick run through country and bluegrass albums in my head, and it makes sense.

how about Tim O Brien and Red Knuckles? Do(es) (t)he(y) count toward this thread?

[AlanN]

Yes, Willie, Charlie Waller was a conundrum. Had a voice which was country register, but from some reason, he never really 'felt' country, at least to me. Could be because he was forever linked to Duffey and Adcock from the early days. He hit more of the country thing with one of the later versions of the Gents with Allred and Kent Dowell, but even then, not too country.

And for some reason, I don't equate Steve Earle with country. More renegade folk, or something. Red Knuckles and the TBs...hmmmm. More spoof than country, to me. Although I can see the thought there.

[greg_tsam]

My point is I feel a supportive band can back a country-tinged vocalist to create a rather unique mix of both things - bluegrass with a country feel (as opposed to the flip side). After all, they are kissin cousins...

I was thinking more like 1st cousins. They can kiss but there's something just a little bit different.

[rockies]

And there is also the album from the iconic bluegrass boy Merle Haggard with the album The Bluegrass Sessions taking his own hits and bluegrassing them .
Dave

[greg_tsam]

I'll admit, right from the off, that i don't understand the seemingly constant need for Bluegrass fans to point out just what, in their opinion, counts as true Bluegrass.

Probably the same folks that feel the need to say the Mumford Bros. are not bluegrass just because they have a banjo in the band. The poor girl that, upon learning I played mandolin, said "I love bluegrass! I listen to the Mumford Bros. all the time." "What!? They're not bluegrass!"

[AlanN]

And there was even a band called Country Grass, with Herschel Sizemore and Wes Golding, their LP was called Livin' Free on Rebel (great! album cover) and one fine record. They even sang a song called I'm Country. But, that was pure bluegrass, imo.

[Joe Mendel]

There was a band called Country Gazette, too. And they even played bluegrass, well, more or less, depending on whose definition you use to define bluegrass. Bluegrass was country music at the beginning, only separated out later when it was deemed to "hick" for the country-politan crowd.

[Tom Coletti]

So, apart from the different voice range, the use (or non-use) banjo is one of the big differences between country and bluegrass?

There's still quite a bit of banjo in country. Banjo resurgence has even been a new source of quibbling in country pop/ folk rock because it isn't "bluegrass banjo."

And actually, the banjo is an extreme case where it was almost ubiquitously associated with southern stereotypes and lot of people forget or never even knew that it was an African instrument in origin because of how far removed it was from its home, and if I had to choose one album with a so-called "bluegrass" instrument to be grateful for, it is Bela Fleck's "Throw Down Your Heart," because it reminds us that instruments and genres are extrinsic to the essence of music itself, merely different ways of accessing certain sounds and tones.



Then on the other side of the coin, Alison Krauss & Union Station are one of the more notable contemporary bluegrass bands to not feature a mandolin and lean slightly towards country, and they seem to be very well-respected here.

Instrumentation is sort of a gray area for defining genres today in that one can play almost anything on anything if they so desire because of worldwide interconnection and cross-pollination. One of the things that I love about the Transatlantic Sessions is that you get to hear instruments in a different context, like Uilleann Pipes and clawhammer banjo in an upbeat bluegrassy rendition of a blues tune, flute and accordion with 5-string banjo in an Irish rendition of a Flecktones tune, and a whole bunch of other combinations that are more about hopping over fences than fortifying them.



--Tom

[Herbm55]

There was a band called Country Gazette, too. And they even played bluegrass, well, more or less, depending on whose definition you use to define bluegrass. Bluegrass was country music at the beginning, only separated out later when it was deemed to "hick" for the country-politan crowd.

Country Gazette! Golly, Kenny Wertz singing that high part! I still have that vinyl. Herb Pedersen was another that crossed boundaries. Good music is good music....

[AlanN]

You're speaking about A Traitor In Our Midst, right? Great record from a bygone era. Has that neat little Berline mandolin number Aggravation. Always loved that inside comic book spread.

[padawan]

Is it weird that this thread makes me miss "Hee-Haw"? (the music part of it anyway)

[mandocrucian]

That west coast stuff, the original Country Gazette, KY Cols. etc. - that sound owed just as much to Bakersfield (Buck Owens, Merle Haggard) as ever it did to Monroe.

BG in the early days was just a sub-form of Country. Then the formula began to get narrower and narrower until the rhythmic groove "evolved" (or "devolved" if you prefer) to primarily "fast chop" and "faster chop".

Want countrified bluegrass...... get some Jim Eanes records, or Buzz Busby and Leon Morris. Or how about The Maddox Brothers & Rose (more west coast madness)?

Or get some of the early albums by The Johnson Mountain Boys. Their sound, and repertoire , goes back to the days before everything was a fast 2/4 polka rhythm. JMB did stuff in waltz time, they did Jimmie Rodgers and stuff bordering on country-boogie. Compared to most of the other bands at the time, they performed a much wider variety of groves and tempos.

But then, what about John Duffey/original Seldom Scene singing things like "Wait A Minute", which is smooth modern "country"? And then there's the first Gaudreau/Adcock II Generation album with tunes like "Legend In My Time" and banjo playing which is puire Telecaster playing put onto a banjo neck.

Rowan/Clarence/Greene/Grisman in Muleskinner...... back to the west coast stuff, as much country-rock as it is BG.

But the BG crowd has some sort of notion about "purity" and has a tendency to reject things that don't pass their "test". Yeah that ain't no part of nuthin'

[Charley wild]

A whole lot of Flatt and Scruggs stuff had a 40's/50's Country sound. "Dim lights......" is one example and there are many others.
Yet they are probably my all time favorite Bluegrass band.

[wildpikr]

The Steep Canyon Rangers have a new release: "Tell the Ones I Love". It has some tracks with drums and pedal steel. Seems to fit with the topic of this thread...